Scud running training?

[Ben Longden]

When;

 

Sunday 24.8.12, 2pm Shepparton Airfield.

 

What;

 

Cessna JVB with one POB doing T&G. Runway 36. (GA aircraft and pilot)

 

Weather.;

 

Winds from the west to south west at 15 knots, gusting to 21. Thunderstorms and heavy showers, averaging five mins between downpours.

 

Observation;

 

Saw the aircraft take off immediately after a heavy shower. Saw AC do circuit. As I was driving past, lobbed in to strip to watch the crash, er landing.

 

Saw AC doing a great dance in the sky with full rudder to maintain heading in 21 kt wind at close to 90 degrees to the strip. Wings dipping and rising madly.

 

AC managed to land... THEN did T&G and took off again as heavy rain enveloped the field.

 

Repeated excercise in heavy rain with 21kt wind.

 

Questions;

 

Would you go flying in such conditions?

 

Would you undergo training in such conditions?

 

Discuss.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

<WARNING Answer is more about weather in general than the exact circumstances you describe>

 

Absolutely...... We can all choose whether to take off, once that decision has been made we have no choice but to land.

 

Of course we can, and should, do much to try and ensure that point B is suitable and that the weather at point B is suitable, but like much in life there are no guarentees. Its important that we are reasonably comfortable flying in the full gambit of VFR weather and dont become limited to the point that we are essentially paralized by concern over weather to the point that much hangar hanging around occurs but little actual aviation.

 

Training, even more absolutelty an instructor that is very comfortable working across the gamit of weather is probably a good (closer to essential?) person to have on board as you extend your skillset.

 

So, all that said do I encourage flying in heavey rain, no, that to me isnt really VFR, and in many aircraft cases not IAW the POH. 21kt wind...depends on direction and the limitations identified inthe POH.

 

That said, I have been caught in rain in my aircraft by taking off on a couple of hour local flight and then made the mistake of flying away from the weather rather than towards the weather and then turning back to the field when the appropriate minimas were reached. In my case the front had crossed the airfield and in the end I had to scoot around the side (thankfully it had a side, and I had the fuel) rather than go over the hills through now through wether that didnt meet the VFR minimums. That case was a combination of poor planing and poor decisions on mybehalf, as a result of "just another local flight" mentality rather than a true case of "sh*t happened" which is only truely "sh*t happened" if no amount of prior planing or decisions could have prevented it occuring, in other words pretty rare!!.

 

Andy

 

 

[storchy neil]

hi ben was at shepp at the same time as you seen it all pity that i did not have big camera with me tried to vid it the gusts were not good i left did not like it one bit neil

 

 

[Wayne T Mathews]

It's very easy, and probably natural, to watch someone do something we would not be comfortable with, and then label that person as a "dumbsh#t". But it ain't necessarily so. What if the "dumbsh#t" was up there with an instructor getting trained to handle marginal conditions?

 

Bad weather happens. And I think, within the laid down limits, that we should be able to handle it. To be able to do that, we'll need to fly every now and then in a sky that is less than eight eighths blue. If we don't, what hope will we have when we get caught out and sh#ts are trumps?

 

 

[frank marriott]

Remember special VFR is legal under

 

certain critera Even in CTA

 

 

[motzartmerv]

As always, the rules are a good place to start. If the Vis got below 5000 meters etc, then the instructor was breaking the rules, and his duty of care. It often looks a lot worse on the ground then it does in the air. Marginal condition flying is excellent training, providing you dont got too far. Its a difficult and blurry line, and I would be wanting some grey hair on the guy in the right hand seat if playing with this sort of thing.

 

Frank, I though SVFR was ONLY available in CTA?.

 

 

[frank marriott]

When I think about it you are right.

 

 

[facthunter]

You will rarely get the conditions to co-incide with an instructional period. You might manage some low cloud base work or get an opportunity on a dual X/Country. but otherwise a rare possibility. Neev

 

 

[RKW]

Neev? That's Irish, isn't it?

 

 

[facthunter]

Neev...It's my irish keyboard.

 

I have noticed some instructors quit the exercise when the weather gets a bit crook (Don't go at all) If you did it might be an opportunity to get a bit of realism into the exercise, but the student might not feel that value for money was obtained. Each person has their personal limits although the rules give heights and distances. smoke and haze is hard to estimate and not a lot of fun to navigate by sight. I think that the first time a pilot encounters limiting conditions he/she will be on their own and will make the decision on figures and a situation unfamiliar to them. This probably is not very satisfactory. My only recommendation is that pilots learn a lot about weather, and be cautious, especially when they don't have a lot of experience. Nev

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

When;Sunday 24.8.12, 2pm Shepparton Airfield.

So is this a hypothetical scenario or has VIC gone non-Gregorian?

 

Or perhaps I am going nuts..... just finished a long days work, it is Saturday right?

 

 

[facthunter]

I've met Greg and Ian. Nev

 

 

[RKW]

I've met Greg and Ian. Nev

What! Both of them?

 

 

[Wayne T Mathews]

I've met Greg and Ian. Nev

Not me. I've only met Greg or Ian. Not sure who's who...

 

 

[68volksy]

No chance of going flying and the Instructor should probably have their licence revoked in my view!

 

The level of stupidity the instructor is passing on to their student is unbelievable in these instances - seen it happen too many times. Last weekend the local ATO was up for a days flying with a few students but wasn't happy with the conditions so he and the other instructor called the flying off. Then happily sipped on a cup of tea whilst describing another local instructor taxing out as "heroic"! Given there's a good chance he'll be doing the students flight tests in the future they're not doing themselves any favours by showing so blatantly an inability to judge weather conditions...

 

No-one has to go flying in bad weather! It's good to get a little experience but the focus in training should teach people when it is safe/comfortable to fly and when it is not. I'm sick of stories of idiots merrily flying off into bad weather or darkness and killing themselves and their passengers when it's so blatant to those with any sense they should never have left the ground!

 

It's all well and good to mount the "what if we get caught in bad weather" argument but it makes so much more sense to be able to see clearly the bad weather approaching and get out of the damn way.

 

The other option is to keep on pushing the limits and forever be remembered as "the idiot" that trundled out into a gusting 15-21 knot crosswind in their little 40 year old Cessna 150 and then managed to twist on landing, bang a wing, spring a fuel leak and kill all on board. In my view that's the result we should be getting ourselves as far away from as possible!

 

 

[Oksinay]

Hi Ben

 

That must have been Friday 24th?

 

I flew on Saturday afternoon and it was gusty with showers to begin and then went to a light northerly.

 

Do you fly with Secure Air?

 

 

[turboplanner]

So let me see if I've got it, the ones who are being careful and not going out when there's a good chance of flying into IMC, or into conditions which exceed the aircraft's crosswind/wing loadings are the idiots who get caught? These are the people to be ridiculed?

 

What the hell do you think you are imparting to new students who DON'T yet know what safe or unsafe weather is, or what will cause a structural failure.

 

I've led a few threads for you superheroes to comment on, and impart your wisdom, and each time there has been a deafening silence.

 

What is very common is the number of gung ho captains who thought they knew it all, who finish up in the accident reports.

 

 

[68volksy]

And anyone that doesn't believe you have to push yourself to your absolute limits everytime you fly is immediately labelled a "wimp"?

 

One thing I can guarantee you - those of us happy to sit in the club house or wash their planes waiting for a good day are doing a lot less damage to the flying fraternity nowadays than those who are constantly pushing the limits of their abilities and their machines!

 

I have also observed that the ones pushing the limits constantly also seem to be the ones complaining the loudest about ever-increasing legislative interference in this sport. Interference that would not exist if they hadn't been pushing those limits.

 

 

[dazza 38]

Call me a sick bastard, but I like to fly when the conditions a rough, and fly circuits in a x wind. I have not flown a lot in this calendar year, so about one hour per month.I have to fly in windy conditions so I get the practise in.In other words my flight time is of benefit to me . Flying when it is calm is great when carrying a pax, but boring if just tooling around. Fair weather pilots , will one day or another get caught out with the weather conditions changing all of a sudden.And finding themselves, in a bit of trouble.

 

PS- when I say rough, i dont mean bad enough to damage the aircraft. ( or me).

 

 

[dazza 38]

Students will not have a say in it.No Instructor is going to let a student loose in rough ( that is other than calm conditions) unless the instructor thinks they are good enough to handle it. Students will have to practise x wind by themselves at some stage before their test . .

 

 

[turboplanner]

Ben's been around long enough to know the difference between a rough day, which is still quite safe, but gives you a workout, and one where something is not quite right.

 

Apart from anything else this thread shows the attitude of some people to club aircraft, or other people's aircraft, with wooden props, susceptible to damage in heavy rain.

 

 

[Wayne T Mathews]

It's interesting that every post like this ends up as a broad swipe at any pilot that goes up in anything but a calm blue day as being a fool, why is flying on a day with a bit of chop and some showers instantly elevated to a madman flying IMC in an ultralight?...................Met

Because, It's very easy, and probably natural, to watch someone do something we would not be comfortable with, and then label that person as a "dumbsh#t".

 

 

 

[dazza 38]

After reading Bens First Post. I sounds as though the conditions where out if the pilots league and/or aircrafts.With the near crash on landing.What I was saying was more along the lines of, it being pointless to fly all the time in calm conditions, because on day away from a airfield, the weather may all of a sudden get nasty. Pilots need to have some good stick time in rough conditions.Also as Turbs has mentioned.Anybody who flys through heavy rain with a timber prop, will regret it later.

 

 

[turboplanner]

You didn't strike a nerve in the way you think. Have another read of Ben's post.

 

 

[facthunter]

There is a bit of a disconnect between Ben's tale and some of the comments that are intended to be more "general". Some pilots will just go on pushing the boundaries till they bend something or worse. There is rarely a shortage of potential show-offs.

 

Currency is essential and crosswind landings precautionary landings engine failures etc should all be practiced. You don't go over your limits or the aircrafts though, if you aspire to regard yourself as a "GOOD" pilot.. If a "culture" of that sort of thing develops you are going to be running to a downed plane and looking at things that you would not like, someday. . A good pilot is one who doesn't put him/herself into a situation that requires a better pilot than they are, to get out of it.

 

To a great extent you can choose to limit the conditions that you fly in to your comfort level of danger/ safety, by making sure that you are never "dared" into doing something that you are not comfortable with. I have never been one to tangle with "BIG" storms. I always go around them. It is better to be a live coward than a dead hero/(idiot). same with Vne and turbulence, flap speeds, etc. Cowboys don't aid our image or our safety record. They endanger our continued freedoms to fly. They kill others as well as themselves. Instructors should be a constant good example to their pupils. If they need to break the rules to impress others they are in the wrong job and should have their rating removed. If they really are competant it should not be so necesary to demonstrate their lack of judgement by extreme flying. Nev