Scud running training?

[frank marriott]

Flying in ideal conditions is great.

 

Because of the various aircraft now available to us we have to be prepared for less then perfect conditions if we fly 500 or more nm in one day and many 1000s in a week for example.

 

If you are flying locally in a slow short range aircraft you have a good idea of what you will encounter for the duration of your flight but we are now doing flights that previously only PPLs and the like do then a broader knowledge is necessary.

 

Flying in less then ideal conditions without blindly following a GPS is important to anyone learning. - How this is achieved I will leave to those doing the teaching but my point is these conditions occur and it is desirable that exposure to less then ideal

 

conditions occurs before one is out there on his/her own with a non-flying PAX

 

The training in most schools, I believe, reflect this NOW but I have come across some who got their Lic under the old system and upgraded their aircraft but not their knowledge

 

I realise this is a bit of thread but I thought I would post it anyway. Hope I don't offend

 

I realise I am posing a perceived problem without suggesting an answer but I think it is real - maybe just me!

 

FrankM

 

 

[Flyingphot]

I have just completed 3 weeks of instructing in north west Qld and I can assure you that conditions locally can change rapidly. When departing with a 10 knot wind down the strip for an exercise in the training area, it is not unusual to return to find a swirling, gusting, 20 kt wind 30 to 40 degrees off the strip direction.

 

I believe I have a duty of care to my students to ensure that before they encounter these conditions solo, that they have demonstrated that they can handle them competently with me there to show them how. On sunday morning my first student, who is nearing certificate standard, and I spent an hour shooting circuits in windy gusting x-wind conditions which were close to the aircraft's limits. My next student, who was there for his 3rd lesson, climbing and descending, was most disappointed when he was told, no fly today, because he would have gained nothing from flying in those conditions.

 

I believe it is my responsibility as an instructor, to adequately prepare my students to be able to handle these very real and common conditions before they have to handle them solo. I am not a hero and I am certainly not showing off my amazing (my description) abilities, what I am doing is exercising my duty of care.

 

Safety through training.

 

Cheers, Bill

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[facthunter]

Spot on Bill. Duty of care is a good concept. If some student ever come unstuck because of some inadequacy in my training of him/her I would not forgive myself. If having been told what to do and skilled for it The person chose to be stupid then that is another matter . You have carried out your responsibility and the rest is up to them....Nev

 

 

[Wayne T Mathews]

Spot on Bill. Duty of care is a good concept. If some student ever come unstuck because of some inadequacy in my training of him/her I would not forgive myself. If having been told what to do and skilled for it The person chose to be stupid then that is another matter . You have carried out your responsibility and the rest is up to them....Nev

Hear hear.

 

 

[Ballpoint 246niner]

Bill your flying skills are now being nicely married to your insight for responsibility in the role we have taken on. My best wishes in your progression towards a CFI ship soon. Many an instructor will often echo if you think you've learnt a lot- then wait till you start teaching, then the real learning begins... Be good to see you back in SEQ skies

 

 

[Flyingphot]

Bill your flying skills are now being nicely married to your insight for responsibility in the role we have taken on. My best wishes in your progression towards a CFI ship soon. Many an instructor will often echo if you think you've learnt a lot- then wait till you start teaching, then the real learning begins... Be good to see you back in SEQ skies

Hey Neil, got back today, heading back to the Isa in a couple of weeks. I'll try to catch up this week.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

To me the day that a forecast is issued with a certificate of accuracy is the day that we can really have teh debate that we dont have to fly in bad weather. Until then pretending that an occasion where you will find yourselves in marginal weather is inconceivable is simply rediculous. The argument that is was a failure of culture or attitude or in fact anything else you want to insert here is indeed worthy of debate but does nothing to help you when for what ever reaon there you are in the mess.

 

The fact that there are still people killing themselves in IMC or more of a concern to me marginal VMC suggests that in addition to failures in decision making there are failures in ability to continue to fly the plane in VMC. Both failures need to be worked on, not one in isolation of the other

 

Andy

 

 

[Ballpoint 246niner]

Andy's hit the nail on the head IMHO. I spend a lot of training time focussing on. Metis the most important part of flying, particularly XC and it's one of the variables we definitely can't control but need to understand and respect, especially whilst in flight.

 

Pre planning, interpolating change and making early safe decisions are key to avoiding flight into deteiorating weather. External desires, plans or pressures or those by the pilot have no place in this environment. When weather fronts up to you, you better have your smart shoes on and dance well in them, or it could be the last waltz for those in the cockpit.

 

 

[slartibartfast]

When weather fronts up to you, you better have your smart shoes on and dance well in them, or it could be the last waltz for those in the cockpit.

Shit Neil. Way to stretch a metaphor.

I had a very interesting flight to Taree a few weeks ago which strained the comfort zone to the limit. I feel I made good decisions and got there OK, but the ceiling in the VFR lane from Maitland got to 600 feet. Always had options and could see sky between cloud and ground though. It's really important to get the training to make these decisions and handle the plane executing them.

 

Again on Sunday, I had a most interesting crosswind take-off. You need to stretch yourself or you'll find your ballet shoes won't fit anymore, and your dance partner has taken off with someone who fills their tights better, and the tango you thought you were dancing was just a Canadian two-step.

 

Where was I?

 

Oh yeah. Let the instructor make the call. Learn from the experience. It's his butt too.

 

 

[Aldo]

My views for what they're worth.

 

It never ceases to amaze me how a couple of simple questions/observations can lead to such critical analysis of another aviaitor. From the original post I would like to ask a couple of questions and make a couple of observations and comments.

 

1. Did the observer/s know the PIC
    
    
    
    
   
2. If not how do you know that he/she is not IFR rated and not simply practicing to remain competent (the aircraft may actually be rated for IFR flight).
    
    
   

 

 

 

[*]From my research (Australian aircraft register) VH-JVB is a Cessna Conquest registered to a company operating out of Darwin (I would therefore be questioning the powers of observation of the observer).

 

[*]For the purposes of this discussion lets assume it was actually a 172 and not a 441 conquest and the weather was as stated and the date was the 26th (Sunday) and not the 24th.

 

[*]I would question though if the wind was west to south west why he/she was using RW36 and not RW18?

 

Point 1:

 

I'm unfamiliar with the area but it seems apparent to me that there are several suitable alternates within 50NM from Shepparton that the PIC would have been able to divert to had the weather deteriorated to such a bad state that he/she was unable to land at Shepparton.

 

Point 2:

 

The maximum demonstrated cross wind for a 172 is 15 knots and according to the observer the conditions were 15/gusting to 21 (I'll assume this was from the AWIS and not forcast or estimated) so not outside the parameters of the aircraft capabilities.

 

Point 3: As the thread was titled

 

"Scud Running", as a VFR pilot, next to low level beat-up's is probably one of the most dangerous activities that you can partake in, you need to be extremely competent and current, know exactly where you are at all times (as you are changing direction constantly, and not relying on your GPS as your eyes need to be outside), know your aircraft and its limitations intimately, right to the edge of the operating envelope, know how to complete a box canyon turn (http://www.pilotfriend.com/safe/safety/canyon_turn.htm) without thinking, be able to fly your aircraft as slow and as low as required to maintain control (hang out the flap if necessary) and terrain clearance, don't panic, always have an escape route (monitor your back door) and be prepared to land anywhere if required. This will keep you alive, if you don't have all of the above don't do it. Remember if you absolutely have to get there drive.

 

So how do we become competent, and what is competent and current?

 

According to the rules to maintain your licence (currency) you are required to have completed 3 take off's and landing's in the preceding 90 days. Are you competent? Only you can answer that truthfully, but I would not be flying with you (without a set of controls in front of me).

 

Competence comes from training and practice - training in conditions (in which you are neither competent or comfortable) with a suitably qualified instructor, in the situation of "Scud Running" I would suggest finding an IFR rated instructor and aircraft and do your training in that (may cost a little more, but may also keep you alive or at least out of the dirt), you may also be able to log some real instrument time and this could prove invaluable at some time in the future, if nothing else it will alert you to the danger associated with inadvertant entry into IMC and how quickly spatial disorientation can occur and that will kill you.

 

Practice as often as you can just below your level of competance, if you are competent with 5 knots of cross wind practice with 4 knots until you are so comfortable with it that it seems normal and progress from there.

 

To answer the questions posed

 

Would I go flying in those conditions - I would have to see the conditions first hand to determine the thunderstorm threat, other than that - Yes providing I had a viable exit strategy.

 

Would I undergo training in those conditions - Absolutely, (with the right instructor and aircraft)

 

I don't condone dangerous flying but any flying can be considered dangerous if you're not competent even on the most perfect of days.

 

Remember don't judge others based on your own level of competence and comfort (they may be trained for what you deem dangerous), by all means discuss it and learn from it.

 

Enjoy your flying.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Since VH JVB seems to be very actively working from Darwin to places like Bathurst Island, and Ben is not likely to miss the second engine and turbine whine I think we can safely say that JVB refers to a local operator, or there was a typo.

 

One person was on board, so discussions about having instructors on board in this type of weather etc, don't bear directly on what Ben saw.

 

The report says there were thunderstorms and heavy showers averaging 5 minute intervals; if you can do a sub 5 minute circuit you may have been able to get around between storms.

 

He talks about the aircraft dancing about in the sky, with a wind gusting to 21 kts at almost 90 degrees, and the wings dipping sharply.

 

He says the aircraft took off into heavy rain.

 

He says the aircraft was doing circuits.......

 

 

[motzartmerv]

by all means discuss it and learn from it.

Seems to me thats exactly what was happening.:)

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Even IFR pilots have minnimas. I see sheparton only has an NDB,GPNSS so that rules out doing practice NDB approaches (in 5 minutes).

 

Some could argue that with a demonstrated 15 kt crosswind, gusting 21 kts xwind in marginal vis could be defined as "a risky" move.

 

 

[kaz3g]

I was up at Shepparton that day and the weather fronts were coming across at regular intervals. In between it wasn't too bad apart from a strong westerly/sou-westerly.

 

I didn't see the 172 spoken of but did chat with someone I know in an IFR C182 who was doing his BFR and said he and the instructor had flown though some heavy downpours between Benalla and Shepparton. Didn't see any TS, just heavy rain.

 

Kaz