aircraft missing from Monto

[planedriver]

Had they carried modern communication systems with GPS fixes that would have certainly made an early fix on their position more readily available, that would have been great,. However, in this case, it would sadly have not made any differnce to the outcome.

 

I certainly wouldn't want to pay the bill for having a couple of turbo-prop twins in the air for 3 days and all those hours, plus up to 15 choppers.

 

The SAR people did a great job in what would have been like "finding a needle in a haystack" but anyone in the same position, would want them to do the same, regarless of of the cost involved.

 

 

[Ballpoint 246niner]

I was driving though that area to harvey bay. And i was thinking that i hope people use there HF training.

I diverted at Goomeri in deteoriating conditions about 8.50am on Monday and glad I never persisted on track back to YCAB. We picked up the road to Nanango under a reducing base that wasn't improving to the west and at between 800-1100 agl and visual we safely made Nanango where we were stuck for all Sunday and Monday. The time there was a terrible wait of reflection and introspective assesment as we had held over at Monto on the Sunday with the expectation and report of improving conditions.

 

The only thing that can truly define an aviator is not the thousands of hours or variety of experience... unfortunately it all can come down to one crucial split second decision. I re-inforced a very important lesson on Monday- NEVER hesitate in making a prudent decision. Sure a couple of days in Nanango may not have been on the agenda, but as I flew past the ugly cloud infested tops over Mt Langley and the Kenilworth ranges on Tuesday morning as we returned home,I surely wept the water on their behalf for another fallen aviator.

 

 

[AV8A]

You have got to be kidding! It seems that we come to have completely unrealistic expectations of technology in Aviation? You could walk 2 meters off the road in 90% of this country and disappear... Add the bushland in that area, hills and weather and unless you can blow spark out your nether regions while whistling dixie out your ears you would be hard pressed to find them without the effort expended by our hard working SAR people.

Err - no serious was my obvious intention. If i key the mike on a police frequency and tell them what I think of them - I will have a knock on the front door in less than 15 minutes or atleast have cops driving up and down my street.. A mobile phone will periodically try and ping a repeater tower. When it does that it sends the phones sim id - that way towers can direct incoming calls to the nearest tower to initiate the call. It's not rocket science..

 

And yes if they had a dedicated and active EPIRB the results would have been more efficient. But a phone is doing essetially they same thing..

 

 

[winsor68]

I get you AV8... I agree it isn't rocket science... but I have seen a SAR Dornier up close... they are packed full of rocket science.

 

I reckon the guys and girls involved in this search and now recovery would have done everything within their power... we owe them thanks.

 

 

[Guest Howard Hughes]

AV8A, I'll pass on the police comment, but do you understand how radio waves propagate? It may not be rocket science, but even with modern technology, searching is bloody hard work.

 

 

[Spriteah]

Very sad result. From hearing pilots comments on the weather in the area it reminds me of comments from my testing officer. Treat those clouds as rocks in the air. Rip peoples. For everyone else, let's stay safe!

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

There will be lessons to be learnt here, and ones that will touch many of us, and hopefully stay with us the rest of our flying career. I wouldn't say I knew Des personally, but I had spoken with him at past Old Station fly-ins and had the pleasure of watching him operate the beautifull 'Riama' for two days at Monto. You can tell when a pilot is in fine tune with his aircraft, and he certainly was at Monto.

 

There was a weather system that we all watched and worried about, before, and during Monto 2012.

 

Myself and friends departed Monto around 2pm Sunday. We cautously picked our way through the ranges out to the coast, to overnight at Emu Park near Yeppoon. The ever present heavy overcast was challanging at times, but we always kept it safe. Monday morning dawned with rain, and it didn't look like we would be going anywhere that day. However it cleared, and we made our way North, and the further North we went, the better it got. Others headed South to their destinations, and no doubt the further South you went the worse the weather got. There were large quantities of rain recorded in areas of the Sunshine coast that day.

 

I would have assumed that both Des and his lovely craft would have been instrument rated to tackle that route direct that day. Unfortunatly neither appear to have been. He was a very experienced aviator especially in that aircraft. I don't expect he would have taken that route, without thinking he was up to it.

 

It is very unfortunate that the final verdict will probabily be the all too familiar ' failed to maintain visual flight reference into IMC conditions, resulting in a loss of control of the aircraft '. It just seems too damn simple really, but therein lays the big lesson for us all, and one that hopefully will make us better, safer, and more educated pilots into the future. Des took a good experienced shot at it last Monday, as we all do on occasions, but unfortunatly he ran out of luck, and options. His loss, and those of his passengers will not be in vain, if we all remember the big lessons and dangers that bad weather can throw at us, if we choose to take it on. keep it safe folks...

 

 

[farri]

I would have assumed that both Des and his lovely craft would have been instrument rated to tackel that route direct that day. Unfortunatly neither appear to have been.

Ross, is it just your assumption and what appears to be the case or is it a fact?

 

Frank.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Frank, I don't really know for sure what ratings the pilot held. I don't pull these assumptions out of thin air, and I believe I either read it on this forum, or in a newspaper in the last couple of days. The photograph of the aircrafts' panel in Tuesdays Courier Mail certainly doesn't show what would be considered a well equipped IFR panel, by todays standards. Does anyone else out there know for sure if the aircraft or pilot were instrumented rated ?

 

 

[astroman]

Depends on cost. A VFR flight scud running under cloud, in a moutainous area.Will have a bearing on whether a accident is investigated or not.Regardless of how many people die.

I would hope that there would be a human factors investigation at least... We need to learn as much as we can from tragedies like this.

 

RIP

 

 

[Riley]

Sadly it now matters little how the aircraft was kitted or what ratings the pilot held, the bottom line is too painfully obvious - when we allow her an audience, Mother Nature will have the last word. A sad, sad day and like many others on this website, though I knew them not, I have deep remorse at the passing of six fellow enthusiasts. My sincere condolences are offered to their families and loved ones.

 

 

[dutchroll]

I don't know that we'll ever truly learn. Accidents involving VFR in cloud have been happening every year since the aeroplane was invented.

 

It's serious stuff, even when you've been trained to do it properly and have thousands of hours instrument time. I remember getting the leans in a big jet one day, IMC, during a departure turn. I had to concentrate so hard and scream silently at myself to follow the ADI in front of me, and even had to cross-reference it with the other 2 ADIs in the cockpit to convince myself it was correct. That's with military instrument training (including recovering from severe unusual attitudes, IMC, without an attitude indicator), a full command instrument rating, and a cockpit as IFR-equipped as it gets! I've never really had the leans since. Why did I get them that day? Who knows? But it wasn't a pleasant feeling.

 

If you're a VFR pilot and/or in a VFR plane and you wander outside to be greeted with a pretty miserable day, just turn around, go back home or to the pub/tent/whatever, and enjoy a quiet beer. Another day is nothing in the big scheme.

 

If you're already airborne and the sky ahead is getting dark and menacing, time to think seriously about not going in that direction. And if you need to make that decision more than twice in quick succession, it's really time to stop rolling the dice.

 

 

[flying dog]

Ok, I am getting in late. But days ago I heard on the news that the EPRIB was triggered then turned off. Well, ok it was turned off. But when it was triggered, wouldn't they have got a fix on it and known where to look? Shutting up now.

 

 

[djpacro]

I don't know that we'll ever truly learn. Accidents involving VFR in cloud have been happening every year since the aeroplane was invented. .... Another day is nothing in the big scheme. ...... it's really time to stop rolling the dice.

The accident investigation is always done in good weather - from Mac Job.

[cscotthendry]

Ok, I am getting in late. But days ago I heard on the news that the EPRIB was triggered then turned off. Well, ok it was turned off. But when it was triggered, wouldn't they have got a fix on it and known where to look? Shutting up now.

The AMSA website said thet their EPIRB was a non-GPS type. That means that it puts out a signal which is picked up initially by satellites. They can locate such an EPIRB to about 50 miles I think. The GPS type EPIRBs on the other hand, broadcast not only the beacon, but their location which is as accurate as the normal GPS system which from memory is about 50 metres.

 

 

[farri]

[quote="dutchroll, post: 244349, member: 5732" If you're a VFR pilot and/or in a VFR plane and you wander outside to be greeted with a pretty miserable day, just turn around, go back home or to the pub/tent/whatever, and enjoy a quiet beer. Another day is nothing in the big scheme.

 

If you're already airborne and the sky ahead is getting dark and menacing, time to think seriously about not going in that direction. And if you need to make that decision more than twice in quick succession, it's really time to stop rolling the dice.

 

That`s about it as far as I`m concerned.

 

Frank.

 

 

[Doug Evans]

Ok, I am getting in late. But days ago I heard on the news that the EPRIB was triggered then turned off. Well, ok it was turned off. But when it was triggered, wouldn't they have got a fix on it and known where to look? Shutting up now.

they said on the news that the last contact with Des was low on fuel and lost ,so i think after that transmissinion he may have ativated the eprib at about the same time they went in and the unit was destroled on impact !

 

Thats may be why they where unable to get a lock on the unit ?

 

 

[Cosmick]

The AMSA website said thet their EPIRB was a non-GPS type. That means that it puts out a signal which is picked up initially by satellites. They can locate such an EPIRB to about 50 miles I think. The GPS type EPIRBs on the other hand, broadcast not only the beacon, but their location which is as accurate as the normal GPS system which from memory is about 50 metres.

Remember when you turn on a GPS Epirb it has a cold startup and could take a couple of minutes to get a fix. Also it would need a good look at the sky to get as quick a fix as possible. The benifit of the Spot is that it is on while traveling and already knows where you are and will send an immediate fix at the push of the button. Does the Spot product satisfy requirements to carry PLB/EPIRB ?

 

 

[Doug Evans]

Remember when you turn on a GPS Epirb it has a cold startup and could take a couple of minutes to get a fix. Also it would need a good look at the sky to get as quick a fix as possible. The benifit of the Spot is that it is on while traveling and already knows where you are and will send an immediate fix at the push of the button. Does the Spot product satisfy requirements to carry PLB/EPIRB ?

not shore if this may exsplan the difrence bewteen the units ?

 

I am trying to get more information on both as I have to get a unit for my aircraft soon

 

 

[rankamateur]

I don't know that we'll ever truly learn. Accidents involving VFR in cloud have been happening every year since the aeroplane was invented...... I've never really had the leans since. Why did I get them that day? Who knows? But it wasn't a pleasant feeling.

The answer is probrably in the first line of your post, just the hand of somebody else's bad experience on your shoulder. We are all going to fly with Des's hand on our shoulder, especially when the weather closes in, so for God's sake hear the message, when he squeezes a little bit harder!

 

 

[eightyknots]

It is very unfortunate that the final verdict will probabily be the all too familiar ' failed to maintain visual flight reference into IMC conditions, resulting in a loss of control of the aircraft '. It just seems too damn simple really, but therein lays the big lesson for us all, and one that hopefully will make us better, safer, and more educated pilots into the future. Des took a good experienced shot at it last Monday, as we all do on occasions, but unfortunatly he ran out of luck, and options. His loss, and those of his passengers will not be in vain, if we all remember the big lessons and dangers that bad weather can throw at us, if we choose to take it on. keep it safe folks...

It all sounds so detached and clinical when stated that way. May God keep all of us from ever getting caught in such deteriorating weather.

 

CONDOLENCES to the family and friends of those that were lost....

 

 

[turboplanner]

It is clinical eighty. When some time has passed we should take a close look at the subject.

 

 

[facthunter]

The same old weather trap that has caught many. In cloud, you have to fly it and find your way.( Aviate , navigate) You won't do this unless you are trained, current, and the plane is suitably equipped. EPIRBS won't help you there. They will only let others find the results sooner. A terribly sad end. Flying is unforgiving of errors, that is the nature of it. The investigation will be done and the only positive is to learn from it. Nev

 

 

[biggles]

It is clinical eighty. When some time has passed we should take a close look at the subject.

Probably best to wait until the preliminary report , at least , is published .

 

Bob

 

 

[biggles]

The AMSA website said thet their EPIRB was a non-GPS type. That means that it puts out a signal which is picked up initially by satellites. They can locate such an EPIRB to about 50 miles I think. The GPS type EPIRBs on the other hand, broadcast not only the beacon, but their location which is as accurate as the normal GPS system which from memory is about 50 metres.

My understanding is that there may be a considerable delay with a non GPS EPIRB , following its activation . It appears that , if the required satellites have passed , it may be some hours before they return and the signal received by AMSA , whereas with the EPIRBS with GPS the signal is received immediately , and with greater accuracy < 10 metres . Well worth the extra dollars !

 

Bob