aircraft missing from Monto

[flying dog]

Just another thought.

 

Ok, what happened happened.

 

*IF* I was in a situation like that and had a "cheaper" EPIRB, or even maybe one with GPS....

 

If I knew I was going in, I would activate it and let the rest take its own path.

 

WRT "the EPIB being destroyed on impact". Well, ok, maybe. And if so as was said: It would be accademic how fast they were found.

 

However: If it was understood we were "going in", I would maybe entertain the idea of throwing the EPIRB out the window before we hit the ground.

 

Although we won't be CLOSE to the EPRIB, it would survive and would be close enough to at least help expediate closing the question to "our" condition/status/situation.

 

 

[dutchroll]

Good time to have some friendly discussion about weather avoidance and instrument vs visual flying though. Weather always demands respect, and treats even experienced pilots with total indifference. And low scuddy drizzly cloud can be every bit as dangerous as a giant CB.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

My PLB was a no GPS model, not because I wanted one without GPS or the few extra $ was a problem but rather at switch over time from the old 121.5 to the new 406 the beacons were in short supply and not suprisingly all the GPS ones were the first to become hard to find.

 

It takes up to 40 minutes for the LEO satellites to get a fix on the non GPS PLB's the Higher staionary orbit GEOSAR satellites are the ones that respond to the beacons that have the GPS message embedded and they are able to provide co-ords to AMSA just as soon as the beacon has a lock on the GPS satellites and transmits the first complete message with GPS co-ords embedded. Of course as you know from your own GPS's that isnt instantaneous and if you absolutely want a GPS co-ordinate to be sent to AMSA you need to allow 2-3 minutes from switch on to be sure (Dont leave it too late)....So, if as reported the beacon was only activated for a very small time them whether GPS enabled or not, probably wouldnt have made any difference becasue the GPS if fitted may not have had time to get a stable fix and then send the co-ords to the main PLB transmitter.

 

FD tossing the beacon out is still a hell of a gamble, if the beacon hits rock at anything close to aircraft speed (vector sum of falling velocity and decaying forward velocity) its still likely to be destroyed I would have thought.... In the cabin with you it still has the cabin crumple/ Aircraft deformation/destruction available to absorb decelration forces, but then there is the fire risk.... So a gamble either way.

 

Andy

 

 

[Guest Howard Hughes]

FD, if you're ever up the proverbial creek without a paddle (and I hope you never are), you will be that busy, you won't have time to find the EPIRB and toss it out the window!

 

But we digress!

 

 

[Doug Evans]

Just another thought.Ok, what happened happened.

 

*IF* I was in a situation like that and had a "cheaper" EPIRB, or even maybe one with GPS....

 

If I knew I was going in, I would activate it and let the rest take its own path.

 

WRT "the EPIB being destroyed on impact". Well, ok, maybe. And if so as was said: It would be accademic how fast they were found.

 

However: If it was understood we were "going in", I would maybe entertain the idea of throwing the EPIRB out the window before we hit the ground.

 

Although we won't be CLOSE to the EPRIB, it would survive and would be close enough to at least help expediate closing the question to "our" condition/status/situation.

No I. Would think throwing out of the craft would be a gamble I think I would be inclined to switch it on as early as I could once I new I was in trouble and leave it in the craft as the plane should take most of the shock and hopefully the unit would survive the crash !

 

 

[Mick]

However: If it was understood we were "going in", I would maybe entertain the idea of throwing the EPIRB out the window before we hit the ground.

I think realistically the EPIRB will survive any impact that you can survive. Looking at the news footage the impact of the Dragon was very high. To have very little recognisable of an aircraft that size it must have arrived at a very high speed. It would be interesting to know what impact force the EPIRBs are designed to take.

 

With the smaller old style 121.5 EPIRB I used to think that if I was in trouble I would put the lanyard around my neck so the unit would stay with me. I am not sure that I would do that with the newer and heavier units.

 

 

[eightyknots]

Andys@coffs' date=' post: 244446, member: 94[/email']]FD tossing the beacon out is still a hell of a gamble, if the beacon hits rock at anything close to aircraft speed (vector sum of falling velocity and decaying forward velocity) its still likely to be destroyed I would have thought.... In the cabin with you it still has the cabin crumple/ Aircraft deformation/destruction available to absorb decelration forces, but then there is the fire risk.... So a gamble either way.

 

Andy

I'd rather allow the crumple effect take care of my EPIRB, my passenger and myself. I think throwing it out of a window is not a good action because we are meant to AVIATE not trying to propel an object out of a aeroplane window. Furthermore, what would happen if you were able to make your way out of the weather? you would be EPIRB-less AND you'd get a lot of people looking for you in the wrong spot, risking their lives and the taxpayers' equipment.

 

I have been thinking about this event on-and-off all day. I find this whole situation so sad. I hope the grieving families are being upheld in this time of grief and loss.

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

Epirb's also have a battery life. Some are to be repacked every 5 or 7 or 10 years we dont know how old his EPIRB was so its all speculation really. Crash damage or battery damage/life are all a part of it.

 

Not wanting to open up a can of worms here especially with AOPA as they fought hard and long against them but at least a transponder would have given position ,height and speed etc maybe not at such a low level as the receiving stations are set in a area I believe to have most coverage above 5000 feet but this could be modified by airservices and more inputs could be placed in high traffic lower airspace use. This also has some issues with the privacy guys who dont want video cameras in shopping malls etc being able to see what you are doing but if anyone is flying not where they re supposed to be its all bad planning usually but at least people will know where you are at any one time. Most transponders start at around 2000 bucks which is a lot more than a GPS epirb but in terms of being seen and where all people are this maybe a outcome from this accident if the powers that be deem this to be a blanket solution to the problem

 

Mark

 

 

[farri]

Good time to have some friendly discussion about weather avoidance and instrument vs visual flying though. Weather always demands respect, and treats even experienced pilots with total indifference. And low scuddy drizzly cloud can be every bit as dangerous as a giant CB.

I agree! Any amount of "Intelligent Accurate Discussion" is better than no discussion and I recall a fair bit of discussion about flying into cloud, having taken place on this Forum a while back! I made my opinions very clear then as you have in your excellent previous post #240!

 

I`m left asking the question, "Shouldn`t it be expected that anyone who has obtained either a PPL or RAA certificate,be completely aware of the dangers of flying into cloud?"

 

Frank.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

What a horrible outcome to a drawn out saga. We can have some sort of solace in knowing that because the aircraft involved was endowed with letters on the tail rather than numbers, that the incident will be investigated thoroughly.

 

Some things in my mind are not adding up, and thats probably due to the usual media misunderstanding of things, but if anyone has any real info, please share it.

 

I don't buy for a second that these guys were "lost in cloud for 2 hours". Im not sure of the exact distances involved, but 2 hours at 100 kts would seem to be a good percentage of the entire ETI of the trip. And the wreckage was located on a direct track between Monto and YCAB. Too much co-incidence that after stooging for 2 hours the pilot managed to be smack bang on track again. Not gunna happen.

 

A couple of comments, and I have to say, not particularly related to this flight, but more a general observation.

 

Route selection. When planning a VFR flight, take some extra time and care, and plan a route that keeps you over the best country available and within reason. The GPS may give you a beautiful little pink line to follow, but it doesn't know or care about whats gunna happen if you get into trouble. This becomes even more important when weather is involved, and on the east coast of AUS, weather is ALWAYS involved.

 

I have often been smacked around a bit because of my stand on using the LSALT box on a VFR flight plan, both personally and when teaching navigation. There are those that think its the domain of the IFR pilot and VFR pilots should stay well away from it. But IMHO the LSALT box is an exellent tool when in the planning stage of a flight. The IFR rules state that whenever considering a flight to a destination that has no navigation aid, the last route segment must have cloud base 500 feet higher than the LSALT. That sounds like a good place to start for me. When planning a flight, if the cloud base (from the ARFOR) is lower than the route LSALT, then im staying home to watch top gun. If its greater than 500 above LSALT, but still close to, then I would be wanting a very very good reason as to why I need to fly today. 1500 feet between the mountains and the cloud is NOT much at all, and I am talking about the 'planning' stage here, not the flying.

 

Parousal of the maps and charts may very well indicate a much safer route, a few miles off the direct track. Over lower terrain, increasing the LSALT cloud base buffer etc. And this is easily spotted when you are considering LSALT on your VFR flight plan. The most deadly bit of tech in most modern lighties is the GPS, because it removes the planning stage from many peoples routines. They jump in, press GOTO and off they go. No consideration of the route etc.

 

Perhaps in time, we will have many things to learn from this tragic accident, but in the mean time it should serve as a reminder to us all, that Aviation is very unforgiving of any incapacity or neglect.

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

[motzartmerv]

I hate that video. Hate it hate it!!!! I reckon its killed more people than its saved.

 

 

[rankamateur]

I hate that video. Hate it hate it!!!! I reckon its killed more people than its saved.

What do you hate about it Merv, It make you think.

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

Thats a casa video...I hadnt seen it before...I thought it was very good certainly scared me

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Yes, ive seen it many times. Been to the seminars etc.. CASA's "just say no to cloud" policy, Clearly doesn't work, and fear mongering like the above, only serves to make it worse. Fear is not an effective teaching tool. if it were, then hell alone would be enough to scare most people onto the straight and narrow.. :)

 

 

[eightyknots]

What do you hate about it Merv, It make you think.

It made ME think. That's probably the purpose of the video: turn back before it's too late.

 

 

[eightyknots]

Fear is not an effective teaching tool. if it were, then hell alone would be enough to scare most people onto the straight and narrow.. :)

Others use this technique as well. See the excerpt from another thread http://www.recreationalflying.com/threads/you-have-been-told-by-kevin-walters.40364/

 

If pilots of great experience and accomplishment cannot successfully carry out this manoeuvre, what makes the rest of us think we can do it? Definitely arrogance and stupidity. I repeat, if you attempt to turn back after an EFATO, you are a halfwit. You don't care about your family and what they have to go through. 100% of pilots who turn back after an EFATO are killed. Does this tell you something? Instructors, are you teaching your students , before they open the throttle on take-off, to say out loud "if the engine fails on take-off, land straight ahead?" If you aren't, you could be open to litigation involving duty of care. What about "Go straight ahead to the hospital, turn back to the morgue" because that's where you'll be. Let's be very clear. If you turn back you'll be a fool and you'll be dead.

 

Without apology

 

- Kevin Walters, CFI

 

 

[motzartmerv]

It made ME think. That's probably the purpose of the video: turn back before it's too late.

And if you dont, you will be dead in 178 seconds.

 

 

[JimG]

What I've found relevant, is that video that I have seen many times before , actually prompted me into further research into the causes and effects of spartial disorientation .

 

From memory I think there is a full chapter on the subject in Bob Tate's HF training manual.

 

So Motz , for me its not about fear it was more of a prompt to learn and understand more........just me though.

 

JimG

 

 

[Mick]

I have often been smacked around a bit because of my stand on using the LSALT box on a VFR flight plan, both personally and when teaching navigation. There are those that think its the domain of the IFR pilot and VFR pilots should stay well away from it. But IMHO the LSALT box is an exellent tool when in the planning stage of a flight.

I agree that a LSALT at the very least should make you consider the terrain you will be flying over. The planning stage is when you should be considering alternative routes, not enroute when you may be busy and / or under pressure.

 

 

[Doug Evans]

Speaking for my self I always plan an IFR route "I follow roads" that was the way I was told too stay alive alway keep a field or road close bye as an engine will stop just a matter of when ! So far in my 12 year behind a two stroke I have never had a engine fail me but I still fly as it will stop at anytime . " seem to work for me "

 

 

[68volksy]

Speaking for my self I always plan an IFR route "I follow roads" that was the way I was told too stay alive alway keep a field or road close bye as an engine will stop just a matter of when ! So far in my 12 year behind a two stroke I have never had a engine fail me but I still fly as it will stop at anytime . " seem to work for me "

Works for me too. It's a hobby is the primary reason. Same reason i'll leave the convertible at home on a rainy day - sure i'm probably competent enough to drive it in the rain and the car would cope with it but I still choose not to because it'd be bloody hard work and darn miserable!

 

 

[XP503]

I like the video, but why do these accidents keep happening??????????

 

 

[Guernsey]

I am sure that this is not new to many of you experienced pilots, but when I was learning to fly I had done quite a few hours instrument flying under the hood and, although I say it myself, handled it very well until one day my instructor told me to remove the hood then took me up into some quite dense low level stratus cloud, levelled out the aircraft and then handed over to me. Boy oh boy that was some lesson I've never been quite so cocky since.

 

Alan.

 

 

[68volksy]

I like the video, but why do these accidents keep happening??????????

Seems to be for exactly the same reason there are always more car crashes in wild weather. I think you'll never stop it happening for exactly the same reason as the cars keep crashing. It really can happen to anyone - I personally try very hard to reduce the odds by being as cautious as possible and reserve nothing but disdain for those who try to pressure me into stepping outside my comfort zone (unless they're an instructor i've paid precisely for that purpose). That said all it takes is a lapse in concentration or a little distraction and we can all find ourselves in a similar situation.