aircraft missing from Monto

[Mr Mal]

What a horrible outcome to a drawn out saga. We can have some sort of solace in knowing that because the aircraft involved was endowed with letters on the tail rather than numbers, that the incident will be investigated thoroughly.Some things in my mind are not adding up, and thats probably due to the usual media misunderstanding of things, but if anyone has any real info, please share it.

I don't buy for a second that these guys were "lost in cloud for 2 hours". Im not sure of the exact distances involved, but 2 hours at 100 kts would seem to be a good percentage of the entire ETI of the trip. And the wreckage was located on a direct track between Monto and YCAB. Too much co-incidence that after stooging for 2 hours the pilot managed to be smack bang on track again. Not gunna happen.

 

A couple of comments, and I have to say, not particularly related to this flight, but more a general observation.

 

Route selection. When planning a VFR flight, take some extra time and care, and plan a route that keeps you over the best country available and within reason. The GPS may give you a beautiful little pink line to follow, but it doesn't know or care about whats gunna happen if you get into trouble. This becomes even more important when weather is involved, and on the east coast of AUS, weather is ALWAYS involved.

 

I have often been smacked around a bit because of my stand on using the LSALT box on a VFR flight plan, both personally and when teaching navigation. There are those that think its the domain of the IFR pilot and VFR pilots should stay well away from it. But IMHO the LSALT box is an exellent tool when in the planning stage of a flight. The IFR rules state that whenever considering a flight to a destination that has no navigation aid, the last route segment must have cloud base 500 feet higher than the LSALT. That sounds like a good place to start for me. When planning a flight, if the cloud base (from the ARFOR) is lower than the route LSALT, then im staying home to watch top gun. If its greater than 500 above LSALT, but still close to, then I would be wanting a very very good reason as to why I need to fly today. 1500 feet between the mountains and the cloud is NOT much at all, and I am talking about the 'planning' stage here, not the flying.

 

Parousal of the maps and charts may very well indicate a much safer route, a few miles off the direct track. Over lower terrain, increasing the LSALT cloud base buffer etc. And this is easily spotted when you are considering LSALT on your VFR flight plan. The most deadly bit of tech in most modern lighties is the GPS, because it removes the planning stage from many peoples routines. They jump in, press GOTO and off they go. No consideration of the route etc.

 

Perhaps in time, we will have many things to learn from this tragic accident, but in the mean time it should serve as a reminder to us all, that Aviation is very unforgiving of any incapacity or neglect.

VFR and IFR aside - I agree with the LSALT principle. Even when lost the first thing I maintain is the LSALT - you cant fly into if your clear of it by 500 feet. Flying lower may give slightly increased visibility if you find yourself "suddenly" in IFR but it increases the chances of a collision with a solid object by an untold factor.........

 

One of the useless items a pilot can have - the air above them.

 

Sad day for all to loose so many and to have them lost in a piece of history at the same time. Thoughts go out to the family and the crews that have the misfortune for being tasked with the recovery.

 

Mal

 

 

[Doug Evans]

Another "coincidence" perhaps is that often accidents like this occur when flying home from an event... food for thought.

that where the problem lies .. we where there that day and Des was not alone in making the desigion we saw at least 12 or more aircraft take off in weather that I would not have flown in about half of them came back . even the radio chatter was about how the cloud base was on the deck yet other still keep trying ......

 

 

[turboplanner]

Pretty much explains the whole thing Doug

 

 

[hihosland]

How many of us as pilots have ventured into that 178 second realm and been fortunate enough to return.?

 

I know that I have been there and the three things that came together to bring me and my passengers back were an AH, sufficient fuel and recent simulator time. Without any one of those essentials and a very large dose of luck the last 235 years of the joys and the sorrows of life shared by the seven of us on board would never have been.

 

What follows is what I wrote of those events for a one of the flying magazines.

 

One Monday in March some years back, saw me pacing the early morning dew at Bathurst airfield. Our driver, desperate to get back to open his business was looking at his watch as often as was the passenger who had a shop to open in Melbourne. Neither of them understood nor wanted to understand the problem. They could see that the field was clear of storm, gale and fog so why the delay?

 

Days earlier on the outward journey storms over Katoomba had forced us to abandon the rented Cessna 210 at Bathurst and finish the journey by taxi.

 

When making plans for a family reunion and celebration weekend in the Blue Mountains this level of stress, uncertainty and delay was not anticipated. On the morning that we were all due back at our various workplaces everyone was stuck at Bathurst while I struggled with the go/no go decision.

 

So much for a relaxed weekend and for my reputation as someone who gets thing done - on time and on budget. My credibility was eroding fast, while the cloud, with tantalizing slowness , was just barely eroding from the ridge tops.

 

To balance the briefing office’s gloomy predictions, I obtained an actual weather from and aircraft at Canowindra. Since he was reporting CAVOK below high cloud I decided to take off and check the cloud/ridge interface from up close.

 

The passengers were loaded and advised that we would be returning to Bathurst if a clear path could not be found.

 

Viewed from the sky the gaps were larger; the horizontal visibility was definitely an improvement on the slant view from the ground. Not good, but not too bad; & I did have that actual report. Another decision made and VH-BEV rolled onto a track up the most open valley.

 

There was plenty of width between fingers of wispy cloud that barely reached down to the peaks. Straight ahead of us was a tunnel large enough to turn the QE2 . All I had to do was pop through that tunnel and then it would be smooth flying all the way home. One small obstacle to clear before I would get everyone home with all obligations and promises honoured.

 

Minutes later those wispy fingers became hands, hands gathering the land up into the cloud. The valley was narrower, and all ahead was grayish white down to the green of the trees. Or was it? Surely it was just another slant line illusion? And if only we were low enough it would again reveal that clear path up the valley. It had after, been clearly visible mere seconds ago.

 

Gently carefully, I eased the first millimeter off the throttle,. The pasture was now streaming past. A view abruptly punctured by a clump of trees, the mates of whom, I suddenly realized were a bout to obliterate two families.

 

It was time to stop laying the odds and to seriously aviate. Throttle forward, wings level, ease the trim towards climb. A wisp of mist swiped at the windshield as I checked the power. Then the view completely disappeared. The abruptness was a shock, as was the glaring white blackness.

 

Glaring white blackness?

 

That’s the very question that I asked myself. But I saw what I saw.

 

The engine note changed in step with my reflex snap back on the column and with the passengers’ silence. They were not pilots, but had been oft regaled by pilots’ stories. Do pilots ever tell stories that are not about being disoriented in cloud, stall and spin or other disasters?

 

I forced myself to focus on the AH. It showed winds level and the nose slightly up – we were climbing straight ahead.

 

What next?

 

Something about scan?

 

Yes Attitude, altitude, speed and direction.

 

Attitude? Climbing straight ahead, wings level – good.

 

Altitude? 3500 and climbing at 400 fpm.

 

Speeds MP? and airspeed OK for climb.

 

Direction? What direction ? I’d been chasing valleys wherever they led. All sense of direction was well lost.

 

Fossicking for the charts I remembered Scan!

 

Scan scan, scan., forget the charts.

 

I looked out to where there was no wing to see, merely water streaming along the Perspex. Beyond that , nothing, absolutely nothing; just more of that glaring white blackness.

 

Attitude, altitude, speed and direction

 

Attitude, altitude, speed and direction

 

Attitude, altitude, speed and direction

 

Good training , earlier ignored, asserted itself. The memorized litanies returned. Aviate, communicate, navigate.

 

Communicate! My God, communicate!. I had so far avoided the rocks in those clouds but what about speeding aluminium rocks?

 

“Canberra this is Cessna Bravo Echo Victor , VFR to the south of Bathurst seven POB. Passing through seven thousand VFR in solid cloud. Request assistance”.

 

“ Bravo Echo Victor , say again VFR in cloud?”

 

“Affirmative VFR in cloud”

 

“ Bravo Echo Victor, stand by….. Bravo Echo Victor remain this frequency and keep wings level on AH”.

 

“ Bravo Echo Victor”

 

” Bravo Echo Victor say again POB? And do you have an instrument rating?”

 

“Seven POB, no rating”

 

“ Bravo Echo Victor I am clearing this frequency of all other traffic.

 

Maintain wings level 0on AH. I repeat keep wings level on AH”

 

“ Bravo Echo Victor”.

 

“ Bravo Echo Victor keepings wings level can you advise your present position”.

 

“Maintaining heading two zero zero leaving 8500 feet on climb.

 

location unsure”.

 

“ Bravo Echo Victor, concentrate on wings level on AH. If possible maintain climb. We do not have you on radar at this time”.

 

“ Bravo Echo Victor”

 

Attitude, altitude, speed and direction

 

Attitude, altitude, speed and direction

 

Attitude, altitude, speed and direction

 

A tense 40 mins after we had entered cloud and as suddenly as we had originally been engulfed, we were spat out into brilliant light. Clear unblemished blue above and a solid froth of white below.

 

“Canberra, Bravo Echo Victor is maintaining 11200 on top of solid cloud, heading one eight zero”.

 

“ Bravo Echo Victor, keep wings level on AH and, if possible, maintain heading and remain clear of cloud”.

 

‘ Bravo Echo Victor”

 

“ Bravo Echo Victor your you are radar identified. Can you come onto a heading of one five eight, remaining clear of cloud?”

 

“One five eight Bravo Echo Victor”.

 

“Canberra Bravo Echo Victor is visual, ten thousand over Lake George”.

 

“ Bravo Echo Victor, remaining clear of cloud, descend to 5500. At 5500 contact Canberra approach on 124.5

 

“124.5 Bravo Echo Victor”

 

What else to say?

 

No one factor created the situation. Just the usual story of a cascading sequence of small deviations from best practice. Thankfully good training eventually did take over. On the ground, an excellent service shepherded two vulnerable babies and their families to safety.

 

Thank-you is so little to offer for such a big service. So little in exchange for seven lives. But thank you ATC was all that I had to offer then and all that I have today.

 

Calm, assured and professional guidance brought us safely home. That and the instructor who in supervising my transfer from a New Zealand PPL to an Australian one had insisted on a couple of hours of real IFR training in IFR conditions.

 

Today both of those infants have children of their own . Children who, we can only hope will grow up p forever protected from that subtle cascading sequence of small deviations. That killer cascade that converts people into statistics.

 

And, I wonder, VH-BEV where are you today?.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Beautiful story HiHo, any one of us could have been there

 

 

[eightyknots]

How many of us as pilots have ventured into that 178 second realm and been fortunate enough to return?

HHL, a great read and an even greater warning for everyone of us. It is so good to hear from a survivor. On the other hand, it's so sad when lives are tragically lost for similar reasons to what you experienced and have now posted on this thread.

 

Thanks very much for sharing this valuable real-life account.

 

 

[cscotthendry]

I like the video, but why do these accidents keep happening??????????

Get-there-itis.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

I was taught a real eyeopener when my Twin Otter pilot mate put me in IFR and let me go until i shortly after lost it and he took back command. Then we did it again and again and again. same results. Lots of disscussion on spatial disorintation and how to deal with it. Made sure on every trip away i did some hood time. It takes a lot of practise and currency to fly by hand in instruments. Nav coupled to auto pilot is your best friend. If we were already in the soup and old mate goes US on me good chance i could get us out and safe but i will never ever go IFR just to get there EVER EVER! And yes LSALT is not just for filing IFR. Cloud can not be just the only problem smoke and pollution haze or dust can cause the same issues.

 

 

[68volksy]

Great story HiHo. One of the pilots here in Goulburn had a very similar incident a few years back coming out of Wollongong. As he came up over the escarpment towards Goulburn he hit a cloud bank that had rolled through. He kept the wings level and a gentle climb and contacted area ATC immediately. They picked him up quickly and steered him clear of the cloud bank and he was on his way. Whole incident lasted about 10 minutes he reckons but it seemed like hours.

 

It seems keeping on top of the panic is the hardest thing of all.

 

Be interesting to see what details start to come out of the Monto incident about what really happened and how/why or if the system couldn't save them.

 

 

[hihosland]

Many thanks for the kind comments re my story.

 

I thought about not posting it as it has now been around for a few years and many here will have read it before.

 

However if it, other stories and things like the 178 minutes video save a life or two then it must be worth re freshing those stories every now and again.

 

It poses a dilema for which I don't have a clear opinion, should we (the aviation community as a whole) encourage/mandate regular training on how to extricate oneself from such situations or would such training tempt more into a potential spatial dissorientation situation.

 

 

[ayavner]

Many thanks for the kind comments re my story.I thought about not posting it as it has now been around for a few years and many here will have read it before.

 

However if it, other stories and things like the 178 minutes video save a life or two then it must be worth re freshing those stories every now and again.

 

It poses a dilema for which I don't have a clear opinion, should we (the aviation community as a whole) encourage/mandate regular training on how to extricate oneself from such situations or would such training tempt more into a potential spatial dissorientation situation.

I was recently watching some of the EAA videos, particularly one on Human Factors and dealing with fear. The point the instructor was trying to make was that we SHOULD expose ourselves to as much of this type of training as we can. Even if you are strictly VFR, recreational only, weekend warrior type, why not take some IFR training or acrobatics? Your mind needs to know how to handle these situations. The way she put it really made sense to me... something to the effect of "do you really want the first time you experience flight upside down to be with your family screaming in the back of the plane?"

 

Same reason as a motorcyclist i think its a great idea to take an advanced course - even if you've been riding forever, it teaches you how to recognise those situations as well as what they look like when you are already in them, albeit with a guiding hand to show you what to do.

 

so my opinion on that dilemma is (within reason and appropriate capability) that there is no such thing as bad (correct) information - it all adds to the tool kit.

 

And, although i am not one to take unnecessary risks, having read your story can almost guarantee 110% that I will never even consider flying near cloud - even if they are small and i reckon I can just pop thru in a sec... job well done mate!

 

 

[Zibi]

Many thanks for the kind comments re my story.I thought about not posting it as it has now been around for a few years and many here will have read it before.

 

However if it, other stories and things like the 178 minutes video save a life or two then it must be worth re freshing those stories every now and again.

 

It poses a dilema for which I don't have a clear opinion, should we (the aviation community as a whole) encourage/mandate regular training on how to extricate oneself from such situations or would such training tempt more into a potential spatial dissorientation situation.

The problem with stories like this (the one with happy ending, not the crash) is that right now, all I (and most likely many others) who have never flown in IMC know about it is that pretty much if you enter it you die.

 

As with any strong statement like this I keep on wondering how does it really feel like, is it really that bad, or do you just need to focus a bit more, after all - how hard could it be?

 

From your story it sounds like it's a piece of cake - just keep that AH line level and slightly above - almost like playing a simple computer game...and that would bring me one step closer to trying it...

 

Luckily there are enough steps to keep me never getting there unless with a qualified instructor and in a properly equipped plane.

 

P.S.

 

If you still wonder where VH-BEV is today - apparently it has made a emergency landing on the bank of Victoria river and later submerged in high tide, causing it to get written of http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=90446

 

 

 

 

 

Type:

 

Cessna 210L Centurion

 

Operator: Marlee Ranacher

 

Registration: VH-BEV

 

C/n / msn: 21059709

 

Fatalities: Fatalities: 0 / Occupants: 1

 

Other fatalities: 0

 

Airplane damage: Written off (damaged beyond repair)

 

Location: Near the edge of the Victoria River - Australia

 

Phase: En route

 

Nature: Private

 

Departure airport: Bullo River Station

 

Destination airport:

 

Narrative:

 

A female pilot has been rescued by her husband in a helicopter after she crash-landed her plane and swam through a crocodile-infested river in the Northern Territory.

 

The 49-year-old woman took-off in a single-engine Cessna from the Bullo River Station, about 350 kilometres south-west of Darwin, when the engine failed about 7.30am.

 

She made an emergency landing on a mud flat near the edge of the Victoria River. She walked about one kilometre up the bank but due to the incoming tide she was forced to swim across the river, a known habitat for saltwater crocodiles.

 

She then set off an emergency beacon, which was picked up by authorities who notified her helicopter pilot husband. The plane disappeared in the raging water

 

He flew to her location and found her safe and well on the banks of the river.

 

 

 

 

 

[hihosland]

Many thanks Zibi on the heads up on BEV

 

You did also say " I keep on wondering how does it really feel like, is it really that bad, or do you just need to focus a bit more, after all - how hard could it be?

 

From your story it sounds like it's a piece of cake - just keep that AH line level and slightly above - almost like playing a simple computer game...and that would bring me one step closer to trying it..."

 

That simple "computer game" is stressful beyond all belief for those of us without a CIR rating and, I suspect, very little less stressful for the qualified but not currently experienced. The stats are not pretty.

 

I'd be genuinely distressed to think that as a result of what I had written someone would be encouraged to try this particular video game.

 

In the game of life there neither a rewind nor a reset button.

 

cheers

 

Davidh

 

 

[dutchroll]

The problem with stories like this (the one with happy ending, not the crash) is that right now, all I (and most likely many others) who have never flown in IMC know about it is that pretty much if you enter it you die.

The problem with instrument flying is twofold:

1. It is a very different type of flying to visual flying. Instead of "look out, look out, look out" it is "look in, look in, look in - don't look out!". And the looking in needs to be methodical. You need to spend 80% of your time (roughly - in any case the great majority of the time) looking at the AI. The other 20% can be allocated in very brief bursts to scanning airspeed, altitude, rate of climb/descent, and heading.

 

2. Your body and your brain lie to you. Your brain does the best it can with what it's got, but it's an imperfect organ like the rest of them. Rob it of one of its fundamental inputs (a visual horizon), and add some confusing signals from your vestibular (balance) system, and it starts thinking weird things which don't reflect reality. This can be demonstrated by using a Bárány Chair. It takes training and practice to get your brain thinking right for instrument flight.

 

It's hard enough being an instrument pilot and having advanced warning of going into cloud, to prepare for the switch between the two types of flying. When it happens suddenly and unexpectedly though, you really need to be on the ball (or the AI!) very quickly.

 

........or do you just need to focus a bit more, after all - how hard could it be?

It is very fatiguing, flying manually on instruments.

 

From your story it sounds like it's a piece of cake - just keep that AH line level

Well, if you can keep the AH line level, that helps. But the reality is that cloud is usually bumpy, and constant adjustments are needed. Also you're not VFR anymore. You cannot "lookout" for other traffic, or terrain, or anything else. You can't drift up 500ft, or off heading 20 degrees and not worry too much about it.

Also when your AI is level and your brain is deceiving you and telling you that you're not level, you need to fight the natural instinct to go with what the brain is saying, and just accept what the instrument is saying. It is a weird feeling, I can assure you!

 

 

[Zibi]

I know most of this, but I guess until you experience it, it's really hard to imagine.

 

And for me it will be even harder as I fly trikes and I don't think there are any instrument rated trikes, and experiencing it in a 3-axis will have to come with a note, that it's different.

 

I was just trying to make a point, that in that article it sounded quite easy:

 

Attitude, altitude, speed and direction - and you're ok or so it would seem.

 

 

[Ballpoint 246niner]

that where the problem lies .. we where there that day and Des was not alone in making the desigion we saw at least 12 or more aircraft take off in weather that I would not have flown in about half of them came back . even the radio chatter was about how the cloud base was on the deck yet other still keep trying ......

Douglas with respect I was one of the pilots that left about 7.30am with a Jodel in front and another Savannah behind me all heading for YCAB. I got the weather 3 times in the preceding 12 hours and the forecast was well within VMC to track direct but a lingering complex trough was slow to move through. If you saw the ARFOR on Sunday pm then there was a line moving through and forecast for 0330z to be through YGAY and moving coastal with scattered SC and CU 3000-6000 behind and clearing the coast by 2200-2300Z on the Monday. The SUnday forecast had TEmpo,s with CB and lots of activity ahead of the trough, many pilots including 3 trikes flew Sth and Sth west on Sunday pm and on forecast I decided, as I,m sure did others to wait over night for the improving weather.

 

The track south to Gayndah was uneventful but a hemispherical of 5500 was difficult to hold after Gayndah, and I decided to move to 3500 to confirm a clear track near Tansey. As we descended I assessed the biggenden and Mary valleys and the coast was very hazy and an undefined base suggesting the trough indeed was still clearing to the east. I couldn't clearly identify Gympie from abeam Goomeri but to the west the base and horizontal vis looked much better.

 

THAT IS WHERE I MADE A DECISION- no hesitation, no pressing on, no chancing it, only alternates west were considered and assessed and we picked up the Bjelke Petersen dam and tracked towards the lower and clearer area then continued to evaluate until we were able to establish a clear but detiorating track to Nanango. Even with this decision I still had preselected areas every minute and kept all alternates open and the back door as well and with the assistance of my pax we constantly assessed LSALT criteria while I stayed 100 percent focused on VMC changing conditions. We safely and successfully made Nanango where we stayed for the rest of Monday.

 

Was I foolhardy, cavalier,macho or naive to leave Monto- IMHO opinion absolutely not, and to suggest any other pilot who did that morning is absolute rubbish. Did the conditions deteriorate as we got closer to home? ABSOLUTELY.

 

Was an alternate, particularly to the west in better weather a good choice-YOU decide! I KNOW THE ANSWER TO THAT.

 

I have flown, taught and rode dirt bikes in this area for 30 yrs and know every hill and track intimately. Was I going to chance it when things changed.NO WAY!! The Jodel pushed on to Kilcoy and had to land at a private strip, the other Sav made it back to YCAB- how I don't know!

 

Six hours later I heard about Des and the Dragon. As a friend I shared an adjacent hangar at YCAB next to Des as he finished the resoration , I was, and still am gutted by all of this. When the search hadn't located them on Tuesday when I finally got home I rang AMSAR SCC and tried to suggest they extend the search area west, my hunch was on the western boundary of their established search area and it appears that the refined search yielded the unfortunate recovery not a rescue, at least it appears they didn't suffer.

 

Doug, keep the constructive comment coming mate, but be careful where you point that chicken bone cause there is always one

 

pointing back as well.

 

 

[Ballpoint 246niner]

I know most of this, but I guess until you experience it, it's really hard to imagine.And for me it will be even harder as I fly trikes and I don't think there are any instrument rated trikes, and experiencing it in a 3-axis will have to come with a note, that it's different.

I was just trying to make a point, that in that article it sounded quite easy:

 

Attitude, altitude, speed and direction - and you're ok or so it would seem.

Ohh Zibi, well have a beer together in 20 yrs I hope...... The conversation will be grand.

 

 

[Doug Evans]

Douglas with respect I was one of the pilots that left about 7.30am with a Jodel in front and another Savannah behind me all heading for YCAB. I got the weather 3 times in the preceding 12 hours and the forecast was well within VMC to track direct but a lingering complex trough was slow to move through. If you saw the ARFOR on Sunday pm then there was a line moving through and forecast for 0330z to be through YGAY and moving coastal with scattered SC and CU 3000-6000 behind and clearing the coast by 2200-2300Z on the Monday. The SUnday forecast had TEmpo,s with CB and lots of activity ahead of the trough, many pilots including 3 trikes flew Sth and Sth west on Sunday pm and on forecast I decided, as I,m sure did others to wait over night for the improving weather.The track south to Gayndah was uneventful but a hemispherical of 5500 was difficult to hold after Gayndah, and I decided to move to 3500 to confirm a clear track near Tansey. As we descended I assessed the biggenden and Mary valleys and the coast was very hazy and an undefined base suggesting the trough indeed was still clearing to the east. I couldn't clearly identify Gympie from abeam Goomeri but to the west the base and horizontal vis looked much better.

 

THAT IS WHERE I MADE A DECISION- no hesitation, no pressing on, no chancing it, only alternates west were considered and assessed and we picked up the Bjelke Petersen dam and tracked towards the lower and clearer area then continued to evaluate until we were able to establish a clear but detiorating track to Nanango. Even with this decision I still had preselected areas every minute and kept all alternates open and the back door as well and with the assistance of my pax we constantly assessed LSALT criteria while I stayed 100 percent focused on VMC changing conditions. We safely and successfully made Nanango where we stayed for the rest of Monday.

 

Was I foolhardy, cavalier,macho or naive to leave Monto- IMHO opinion absolutely not, and to suggest any other pilot who did that morning is absolute rubbish. Did the conditions deteriorate as we got closer to home? ABSOLUTELY.

 

Was an alternate, particularly to the west in better weather a good choice-YOU decide! I KNOW THE ANSWER TO THAT.

 

I have flown, taught and rode dirt bikes in this area for 30 yrs and know every hill and track intimately. Was I going to chance it when things changed.NO WAY!! The Jodel pushed on to Kilcoy and had to land at a private strip, the other Sav made it back to YCAB- how I don't know!

 

Six hours later I heard about Des and the Dragon. As a friend I shared an adjacent hangar at YCAB next to Des as he finished the resoration , I was, and still am gutted by all of this. When the search hadn't located them on Tuesday when I finally got home I rang AMSAR SCC and tried to suggest they extend the search area west, my hunch was on the western boundary of their established search area and it appears that the refined search yielded the unfortunate recovery not a rescue, at least it appears they didn't suffer.

 

Doug, keep the constructive comment coming mate, but be careful where you point that chicken bone cause there is always one

 

pointing back as well.

In no way was i pointing a bone,

 

just my apinon I felt the weather was not worth the risk as a pilot I would not have flown puttin myself and wife and aircraft at an unessay risk for a day seating on the ground would suit me better as it was we were on a motorcycle and I still chose to wait a day for better conditions '

 

I was Marshing aircraft in and out all morning so I had a radio and was listing to others that did have a go and returned saying that the weather was pretty bad !

 

In saying that I had friends that did fly but where heading north they also had an interesting flight north stopping at emu park .

 

So I was just saying from my acount of conditions of the day I would not have flown !

 

We are all able to make our own choices as u did ..and others

 

cheers Doug

 

 

[Ballpoint 246niner]

RAA pilots...get to make the decisions without being challenged(by other pilots)/denied(by ATC)....We lost 2 out of Temora....everyone on the ground knew that they should not have launched....at last light....they did and paid the price...noone called them back

seems to have happened at Monto ....again.....

....except this was not an RA pilot and the decision to leave was based on fair and reasonable information provided by Air Services, and the assessed conditions at departure . The problem is in not breaking the chain and making new. safe in flight decisions. This is a Human factor issue and IMHO not related to anything else.....

 

 

[XP503]

RAA pilots...get to make the decisions without being challenged(by other pilots)/denied(by ATC)....We lost 2 out of Temora....everyone on the ground knew that they should not have launched....at last light....they did and paid the price...noone called them back

seems to have happened at Monto ....again.....

Yeah it's all RAAus fault........ SeeIfiCare we should probably cancel the West Aus RAAus fly-in cause it's bound to happen again hey.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Don't get bent and twisted about it dm1.....pilots need to make 'command' decisions...noone else will do it for them.

I'm going out on a limb........

 

Humans in general have to make command decisions all of our lives. We dont always get it right. There are many occasions where the wrong decision will kill you. If it were not so then we would have no need of police, prisons, trauma centers emergency rescue.....In almost every case where these are needed a command decision that was wrong was made.

 

When humans evolve to the point that command decisions can be made without chance of failure then at that point there will be no human involvement in the decision.

 

As pilots command decisions that are wrong have a greater chance of a very bad outcome and as such we are supposed to be taught a logical and reduced risk way of making these deciaions but at the end of the day if a human is involved then a predetermined set of circumstances will never result in the exactly same set of decisions being made every time. If it were so then if anyone cam back due weather then all that went that way would have done the same. In this case 1 pilot and passengers paid the price, yet others apparently survived to try again another day.

 

Its why we have had similar discussions to this one multiple times every year, and will continue to do so.

 

Bottom line if you choose to fly, then you understand the enhanced risk (and if you dont your life insurer sure does!!) and apparently accept it.

 

Im not suggesting that fatalism is the right approach, just understand that you can do what you can to minimise the risk but not eliminate it completely. If one day the reduced risk gets you anyway, then hope that the surviving pilots who will no doubt talk about it understand that this pastime we partake in is not guarenteed to have a good outcome everytime!

 

Andy

 

 

[dan3111]

Hi all I just thought I would share this it may save a lot of people .

 

Flying with mate ship . What is that ?

 

Back in the the late 80,s I started flying and yes two strokes ultralight,s (scout aircraft ) and had all the early rotax problems to go with them and love to stop . We didn't,t have UHF ,GPS , or just about any thing else just flying mates that stuck beside you and you both looked out for each other . You some times had to land to give advice or hand signals in flight to work together . As we all got 70 kt planes in the 90's we had groups up to 17 flying together on weekend trips and flying together and helping the first timers get there safe.If the first timer weren't,t handling is good we all turned back or landed and regrouped . The group together had people for all different back ground so a lot of flying problems could had been working out . That what made us ultra light pilots normal people with a share of flying . We didn't,t care what speed they did we just sent the slower one off first so we got they about the same time . With all the trips we did got throw in good and bad weather sometime waiting it out together on the ground ,We all helped fixed rotax engines flat tyres and the odd time guided aircraft in safe paddock after engine stops the list goes on but we all got home safe . The main reason it worked well people helped each other and kepted them in line ( the un written rules) if one of the group were putting someone in harms way leaving the brain at home for the day like we all do some days . They where soon told to grow up .

 

How flying has changed people had to go faster and faster aircraft and got more time poor in modern life so there flying only fits in a time slot in there day . It,s not like it used to be using the hole day to get there as a adventure and if we don,t get there it was still fun . People have full time jobs and try to fit they trip in no matter what because they next three weekends are booked for something else they have to do . So this has made more aircraft fly by them selfs not as a group as don,t have time to wait for others in there day .

 

Some tips to help stay alive

 

Fly with other aircraft when tripping .Start of first thing it might turn out to be a long day, Have a plained rout you all understand to follow . Know each others fuel needs before you take of . If you separation have a plain to regroup . If bad weather ring people on the ground at the place you are going to to see the weather there first(as might be a wast of fuel ) . Look out for each other keep sight of your mates .

 

You don,t often here of a group of aircaft lost in weather or crash unless of war planes World War Two and they where ordered to do the mission had no choice to turn back etc a group works together to come up with the safest option for all . When single aircraft go down you are on YOUR OWN AND ALONE !!!!!! .

 

Stay alive and have fun WHERE HAS ALL THAT MATE SHIP GONE

 

Dan .

 

 

[Ballpoint 246niner]

Nice one Danny, as we've all done together may times.... Great to hear from you mate.

 

 

[CrayonBox]

How many of us as pilots have ventured into that 178 second realm and been fortunate enough to return.?I know that I have been there and the three things that came together to bring me and my passengers back were an AH, sufficient fuel and recent simulator time. Without any one of those essentials and a very large dose of luck the last 235 years of the joys and the sorrows of life shared by the seven of us on board would never have been.

 

What follows is what I wrote of those events for a one of the flying magazines.

 

One Monday in March some years back, saw me pacing the early morning dew at Bathurst airfield. Our driver, desperate to get back to open his business was looking at his watch as often as was the passenger who had a shop to open in Melbourne. Neither of them understood nor wanted to understand the problem. They could see that the field was clear of storm, gale and fog so why the delay?

 

Days earlier on the outward journey storms over Katoomba had forced us to abandon the rented Cessna 210 at Bathurst and finish the journey by taxi.

 

When making plans for a family reunion and celebration weekend in the Blue Mountains this level of stress, uncertainty and delay was not anticipated. On the morning that we were all due back at our various workplaces everyone was stuck at Bathurst while I struggled with the go/no go decision.

 

So much for a relaxed weekend and for my reputation as someone who gets thing done - on time and on budget. My credibility was eroding fast, while the cloud, with tantalizing slowness , was just barely eroding from the ridge tops.

 

To balance the briefing office’s gloomy predictions, I obtained an actual weather from and aircraft at Canowindra. Since he was reporting CAVOK below high cloud I decided to take off and check the cloud/ridge interface from up close.

 

The passengers were loaded and advised that we would be returning to Bathurst if a clear path could not be found.

 

Viewed from the sky the gaps were larger; the horizontal visibility was definitely an improvement on the slant view from the ground. Not good, but not too bad; & I did have that actual report. Another decision made and VH-BEV rolled onto a track up the most open valley.

 

There was plenty of width between fingers of wispy cloud that barely reached down to the peaks. Straight ahead of us was a tunnel large enough to turn the QE2 . All I had to do was pop through that tunnel and then it would be smooth flying all the way home. One small obstacle to clear before I would get everyone home with all obligations and promises honoured.

 

Minutes later those wispy fingers became hands, hands gathering the land up into the cloud. The valley was narrower, and all ahead was grayish white down to the green of the trees. Or was it? Surely it was just another slant line illusion? And if only we were low enough it would again reveal that clear path up the valley. It had after, been clearly visible mere seconds ago.

 

Gently carefully, I eased the first millimeter off the throttle,. The pasture was now streaming past. A view abruptly punctured by a clump of trees, the mates of whom, I suddenly realized were a bout to obliterate two families.

 

It was time to stop laying the odds and to seriously aviate. Throttle forward, wings level, ease the trim towards climb. A wisp of mist swiped at the windshield as I checked the power. Then the view completely disappeared. The abruptness was a shock, as was the glaring white blackness.

 

Glaring white blackness?

 

That’s the very question that I asked myself. But I saw what I saw.

 

The engine note changed in step with my reflex snap back on the column and with the passengers’ silence. They were not pilots, but had been oft regaled by pilots’ stories. Do pilots ever tell stories that are not about being disoriented in cloud, stall and spin or other disasters?

 

I forced myself to focus on the AH. It showed winds level and the nose slightly up – we were climbing straight ahead.

 

What next?

 

Something about scan?

 

Yes Attitude, altitude, speed and direction.

 

Attitude? Climbing straight ahead, wings level – good.

 

Altitude? 3500 and climbing at 400 fpm.

 

Speeds MP? and airspeed OK for climb.

 

Direction? What direction ? I’d been chasing valleys wherever they led. All sense of direction was well lost.

 

Fossicking for the charts I remembered Scan!

 

Scan scan, scan., forget the charts.

 

I looked out to where there was no wing to see, merely water streaming along the Perspex. Beyond that , nothing, absolutely nothing; just more of that glaring white blackness.

 

Attitude, altitude, speed and direction

 

Attitude, altitude, speed and direction

 

Attitude, altitude, speed and direction

 

Good training , earlier ignored, asserted itself. The memorized litanies returned. Aviate, communicate, navigate.

 

Communicate! My God, communicate!. I had so far avoided the rocks in those clouds but what about speeding aluminium rocks?

 

“Canberra this is Cessna Bravo Echo Victor , VFR to the south of Bathurst seven POB. Passing through seven thousand VFR in solid cloud. Request assistance”.

 

“ Bravo Echo Victor , say again VFR in cloud?”

 

“Affirmative VFR in cloud”

 

“ Bravo Echo Victor, stand by….. Bravo Echo Victor remain this frequency and keep wings level on AH”.

 

“ Bravo Echo Victor”

 

” Bravo Echo Victor say again POB? And do you have an instrument rating?”

 

“Seven POB, no rating”

 

“ Bravo Echo Victor I am clearing this frequency of all other traffic.

 

Maintain wings level 0on AH. I repeat keep wings level on AH”

 

“ Bravo Echo Victor”.

 

“ Bravo Echo Victor keepings wings level can you advise your present position”.

 

“Maintaining heading two zero zero leaving 8500 feet on climb.

 

location unsure”.

 

“ Bravo Echo Victor, concentrate on wings level on AH. If possible maintain climb. We do not have you on radar at this time”.

 

“ Bravo Echo Victor”

 

Attitude, altitude, speed and direction

 

Attitude, altitude, speed and direction

 

Attitude, altitude, speed and direction

 

A tense 40 mins after we had entered cloud and as suddenly as we had originally been engulfed, we were spat out into brilliant light. Clear unblemished blue above and a solid froth of white below.

 

“Canberra, Bravo Echo Victor is maintaining 11200 on top of solid cloud, heading one eight zero”.

 

“ Bravo Echo Victor, keep wings level on AH and, if possible, maintain heading and remain clear of cloud”.

 

‘ Bravo Echo Victor”

 

“ Bravo Echo Victor your you are radar identified. Can you come onto a heading of one five eight, remaining clear of cloud?”

 

“One five eight Bravo Echo Victor”.

 

“Canberra Bravo Echo Victor is visual, ten thousand over Lake George”.

 

“ Bravo Echo Victor, remaining clear of cloud, descend to 5500. At 5500 contact Canberra approach on 124.5

 

“124.5 Bravo Echo Victor”

 

What else to say?

 

No one factor created the situation. Just the usual story of a cascading sequence of small deviations from best practice. Thankfully good training eventually did take over. On the ground, an excellent service shepherded two vulnerable babies and their families to safety.

 

Thank-you is so little to offer for such a big service. So little in exchange for seven lives. But thank you ATC was all that I had to offer then and all that I have today.

 

Calm, assured and professional guidance brought us safely home. That and the instructor who in supervising my transfer from a New Zealand PPL to an Australian one had insisted on a couple of hours of real IFR training in IFR conditions.

 

Today both of those infants have children of their own . Children who, we can only hope will grow up p forever protected from that subtle cascading sequence of small deviations. That killer cascade that converts people into statistics.

 

And, I wonder, VH-BEV where are you today?.

http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=90446

 

Just seen it's already posted, but you did ask :)

 

 

[rob c]

So VH-BEV had a brush with fame then. The pilot, Marlee Ranacher is the daughter of (the late) Sarah Henderson.