aircraft missing from Monto

[flyerme]

RAA pilots...get to make the decisions without being challenged(by other pilots)/denied(by ATC)....We lost 2 out of Temora....everyone on the ground knew that they should not have launched....at last light....they did and paid the price...noone called them back

seems to have happened at Monto ....again.....

hmm I'm not sure that that telling them not to "launch" or asking them to return would have helped!! Like humans do ,we like to make our own descissions,regaurdless (NOT all ,but a vast majority ), what peeps are telling us.,take Skyhooks lead singer Shirley statchen for eg: was blowing a gale ,he had not long been soloing ,He was in an unfamilar helli and people on the ground told him NOT to fly and His reply,"Do you know who I am?"(hmm a dead man?) and off he went to meet his maker..

Me, im only to happy to take the warnings and advise of others,,My life is worth too much.. but Humans will continue with this "don't tell me what to do" attitude..thats just part of Human behaviour ,So I personally Don,t think it would have helped, but thats Not to say we should sit back and watch it all unfold.We can only advise people and hope they take heed?

 

I think people like the freedom to make their own minds up be it a good descission or otherwise.

 

So try to make the right descission peeple and think very very carefully what your putting your self and your pax and the ground dwellers into...

 

keep safe folks.

 

Edit: someone on here made a very good point..TIME..some pilots just don,t have the time with work commitments erc...thinking this could be a prime reason for poor descission making?

 

 

[shafs64]

it would be interesting to know how many pilots didn't take off.

 

 

[rankamateur]

I think every take off decision made on Sunday and Monday would have been long thought over before finally being made. Sitting on the ground at Monto, you shouldn't judge pilots for taking off. The change was a front moving through and it depended entirely on when and in which direction you were departing as to how wise the final decision was to depart.

 

 

[Jabiru Phil]

So sad an event. My thoughts go out to all concerned.

 

I can't help but put myself in the same predicament as Des and go over what decisions I may have made if it were me, probably not the only one to do this!

 

Surely a 296 gps or similar would have saved the day or at least not be lost. Terrain alert would have indicated danger and wing leveller would keep you stable, asi, alt, speed, direction all on one page.

 

I do wonder if he had something similar on board.

 

I do a fair bit of long distance touring and this accident shook me up a lot. I carry two gps contraptions and all maps. I have the added comfort in an efis for backup.

 

I guess that if I had an vintage plane these instruments would detract from the visual effect.

 

I also wonder what alt the tops were, which would have had a bearing on my decisions.

 

This disaster should be a wake up call to all pilots. When a very experienced pilot loses it, what does that mean for us relative amateurs?

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Myself, Ian and Julie in Cab Sav , and a relativly low-time pilot in a Jab 230 departed Monto around 2pm Sunday. We figured the WX would probabily be worse on Monday, however our main reason for departing was to travel the approx 350 NM to arrive home on Monday which we all did.

 

We backtracked to the North and turned east out to the coast, and overnighted at Emu Park as planned. We did have to alter course a couple of times, but never at any time got to the real 'concerned stage', and never were without an 'out' at any time. The LW and the Savvy were always capable of putting down in a suitable paddock or road if need be (and there were many) the Jab not so well equipped, for outlanding.

 

Looking back, no poor judgement was exercised, and overall real good experience for all pilots flying, as you can't always expect severe-clear weather, and should be capable of feeling confident and capable in 'less than ideal' WX.................................Maj...

 

 

[Yenn]

Years ago i flew direct from Rocky to Archerfield in poor conditions. I found myself under a low cloudbase and possibly less than 1000' from the ground over Kroombit Tops, but looking away to the West I could see lower land. Why was I there, when just a few miles away I would have been much safer. From then on I flight plan to avoid tiger country. If I had to fly from Monto to Caboolture I would plan Monto to Gympie then to Caboolture with just a slight dogleg. All over reasonable country and much easier navigation. Over Kroombit Tops I saw a big waterfall falling into a round pool and it took me 21 years to get to that spot, bushwalking, since then the remains of a WW2 plane have been found within less than a mile of those falls.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

I was doing some instrument training today, in IMC. Things got very busy very quickly when an approach I was set up for was not cleared by ATC. A quick diversion, head down on a chart, pushing knobs, changing radio freq's, and wammo!!!... Lost the scan for only a few seconds, and there I was , in an incipient spiral dive. Heading changed 120 deg's, lost 400 ft, broke lowest safe, all before i FELT anything was wrong. Im not rated, but reasonably current, and quite familiar with the acft. The soup is a killer... Stay well out of it.. Break the 500 ft rule before you mess with the clag..TIP!!!

 

 

[Tomo]

Fly with other aircraft when tripping .Start of first thing it might turn out to be a long day, Have a plained rout you all understand to follow . Know each others fuel needs before you take of . If you separation have a plain to regroup . If bad weather ring people on the ground at the place you are going to to see the weather there first(as might be a wast of fuel ) . Look out for each other keep sight of your mates .

You don,t often here of a group of aircaft lost in weather or crash unless of war planes World War Two and they where ordered to do the mission had no choice to turn back etc a group works together to come up with the safest option for all . When single aircraft go down you are on YOUR OWN AND ALONE !!!!!! .

Well said Dan... reminds me of a story of how a family should be - all there for each other, as one stick is easy to break, but tie a bundle together and you are much stronger.

 

 

[M61A1]

And if you dont, you will be dead in 178 seconds.

I get where you are coming from, and think the video would be better, if it showed the actual research done on a simulator. I saw this as an article some years ago, explaining, how many unrated pilots they put in the sim, in IMC. The end result being that they all crashed, some in as little as 20 seconds, some lasting several minutes, the average being 178 seconds. Essentially saying "we experimented with this many pilots, they all crashed. What makes you think you will the the only one to pull it off?" Instead of "you'll die if you do this".

As far as hell scaring people straight, first you must believe that it is real. Not having a religious dig, but apply it to the dangers of inadvertant IMC.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

In the first five years of my flying career I had two serious low-fuel situations...both of my causing. I haven't 'sweat fuel' since, it's just no fun, and I just don't do it anymore..

 

I have been caught on-top once, of my own doing, with less than an hours daylight to work out how to get down through several thousand feet of cloud, in a non-artifical horizon equipped aircraft. Fortunatly a big hole appeared from nowhere just when I needed it. I certainly won't ever go 'on top' again unless it's well broken, and stays that way !..

 

The recent unfortunate loss of the Dragon has been a big lesson for me, and I hope for many others also. One gets old in this game by learning good lessons, and that has been a huge lesson for sure. It is just not a good idea to go anywhere near solid cloud without a current Instrument rating, and a properly equipped aircraft.............Maj...

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Yep. S#$t happens. Was pretty quick. The chief is a qualified IFR instructor.

 

ps, I havnt forgotten your claims of taking people into IMC to prove a point in a test. :) Glass houses CFI..;) Dont chuck stones.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

The qualified IFR instructor.. As i said...;)

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Fair enough. Yes I wouldn't be playing those games without the grey hair sitting beside me..;)

 

 

[Aldo]

I was doing some instrument training today, in IMC. Things got very busy very quickly when an approach I was set up for was not cleared by ATC. A quick diversion, head down on a chart, pushing knobs, changing radio freq's, and wammo!!!... Lost the scan for only a few seconds, and there I was , in an incipient spiral dive. Heading changed 120 deg's, lost 400 ft, broke lowest safe, all before i FELT anything was wrong. Im not rated, but reasonably current, and quite familiar with the acft. The soup is a killer... Stay well out of it.. Break the 500 ft rule before you mess with the clag..TIP!!!

Good lesson Motz, before any approach know the missed approach procedures, that way be it ATC or the minima is reached you know exactly what you are going to do and where you are going to go, call it a missed approach and everyone should know where you are going to be, then worry about where you are going and who you have to talk to after that, remember aviate, navigate & communicate.

 

 

[flyerme]

[dunlopdangler]

Although I couldn't make it myself, some friends of mine attended the memorial service today and when I saw them on the news.. Of them and also to the loved ones left behind to grieve...quite sobering.. Every action has a consequence and this one was tragic in every sense of the word... I don't want to see another thread of hypotheticals of what you do when you enter cloud and all that nonsense... if you don't have an IFR rating you have no business being there.. prescribed distances from cloud are there for a reason and these fundamental rules have been written so many times now in blood.. A momentary lapse of correct action can be costly in the extreme with the ultimate price paid..

 

 

[nathan_c]

Makes me feel sick just listening to that audio recording, very similar to one we listened to on my first day at work where a jabiru flew into ifr conditions. Would truly be a terrible situation to get into.

 

 

[nong]

On 17 Apr 43, RAAF light transport aircraft, a DH-84 Dragon serial A34-47 with five persons aboard went missing. Last seen over Werombi Post Office on track Mascot to Wagga. The wreckage has never been found

 

 

[Sammy]

Here is the ATSB listing:

 

http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2012/aair/ao-2012-130.aspx

 

 

[Guest Howard Hughes]

Stay well out of it.. Break the 500 ft rule before you mess with the clag..TIP!!!

Great advice!CAR 157 - (4) Subregulation (1) does not apply if:

 

(a) through stress of weather or any other unavoidable cause it is essential that a lower height be maintained;

 

Just remember that if you are stooging around below 500 ft, some quite significant obstacles may not appear on your chart!

 

Beware of powerlines and transmission towers in particular, they are very hard to see against a grey backdrop!

 

 

[turboplanner]

Just remember that if you are stooging around below 500 ft, some quite significant obstacles may not appear on your chart!

Or like me, hit by bad weather for the first time, quick amendment to flight plan across the green sections of the WAC Chart to say under the low cloud then after a time wondering why I could see sticks under the trees so well. Quick recheck of the WAC chart to notice for the first time that green started at sea level OK, but extended up to 660 feet!

 

So it was useless for low flying decisions in bad weather!

 

Since then I've always wondered whether an additional contour, say 250' would help pilots on a day when the ceiling was low.

 

 

[eightyknots]

Or like me, hit by bad weather for the first time, quick amendment to flight plan across the green sections of the WAC Chart to say under the low cloud then after a time wondering why I could see sticks under the trees so well. Quick recheck of the WAC chart to notice for the first time that green started at sea level OK, but extended up to 660 feet!So it was useless for low flying decisions in bad weather!

 

Since then I've always wondered whether an additional contour, say 250' would help pilots on a day when the ceiling was low.

Yes, a 250 ft contour would be helpful in making critical decisions at a bad time. Perhaps a slightly different colour could be used for the 250 ft contour line to assist the pilot?

 

 

[boingk]

250ft demarkation?

 

Surely if you need that minimum clearance you'd be better off maintaining a hawk-like watch out the windows and a rock-steady handle on the flight controls, rather than dropping your gaze to try and read a map?

 

- boingk

 

 

[rdarby]

When I have done low level circuits I have found any wafting up and down by a hundred or so feet, that may not seem an issue on a 1000ft downwind, really seems magnified at 500ft. To not hold your altitude exactly at 250ft could really get you into strife. I personally am not taking off if the weather is bad, so I avoid the need to hedge hop, as I know that if I am down that low and lost I am going to be concentrating on many things and can descend 200ft easily, and hit a tree.

 

 

[turboplanner]

The 250 foot contour is not for flying at; it will show more precisely the lay of the land, where blind alleys might be, where the land is sloping down from the 660 ft high area of the green shading.

 

If the weather closes in behind you, you still have to navigate and using charts under difficult conditions is part of the job.