Operating in the Dark......

[Mick]

Obviously we cannot fly at night but........

 

If I have an RAAus aircraft that was built for Night VFR and hence has a full lighting package, and I am at an airport with full lighting, can I taxi to the bowser to get fuel outside of first light to last light?

 

Looking at the following situations -

 

* You arrive somewhere right on last light ( you were late leaving and got caught by a headwind ), go straight to the bowser but by the time you fill up it is past last light, now you have to taxi to the parking / tie-down area.

 

* A late change of plans means you want to get away at first light but the aircraft is not fuelled.

 

 

[Doug Evans]

I would not see a problem with taxi to fuel depot as long as it safe to do so

 

 

[Guest Howard Hughes]

I can't see any problem, but maybe that is a question for your insurance company.

 

 

[facthunter]

To cover yourself you would need some night flying training credits I reckon. You probably can't legally do it in an RAAus plane, after last light without being familiar with all the lighting systems. I believe there is not a lot of mileage in pushing these things, because some new broom will make his day giving you a hard time. Just imagine if you tangled with something big. Nev

 

 

[storchy neil]

when does flight begin you can taxi at any time as long as it is safe to do so neil

 

 

[turboplanner]

There's always someone in RA wanting to push it.

 

RA operation is daylight.

 

In GA you can get a Night VFR rating; That's Night Visual Flight Rules; that's only operating when you can SEE, and that's not in the dark; and its not Instrument flight,

 

Same applies on the ground;if you're PIC you must be able to see.

 

With the lighting power of the tiny little lights on RA aircraft and the brakes on the Jab, I wouldn't think of trying to taxy in the dark.

 

 

[Mick]

There's always someone in RA wanting to push it.RA operation is daylight.

In GA you can get a Night VFR rating; That's Night Visual Flight Rules; that's only operating when you can SEE, and that's not in the dark; and its not Instrument flight,

 

Same applies on the ground;if you're PIC you must be able to see.

 

With the lighting power of the tiny little lights on RA aircraft and the brakes on the Jab, I wouldn't think of trying to taxy in the dark.

Easy there Turb's. I was only posing this for thought & discussion. With a Rotax I don't taxi to bowser - the jerry cans of Mogas come to me! :peepwall:

 

 

[flyerme]

you can only OPERATE an RA in daylight but I have not found anything to state you can not walk the plane to the bowser,parking,hanger etc after the fact!

 

You are NOT OPERATING the plane if your pushing /or dragging it along are you?

 

 

[J170 Owner]

I'd check with the airport operator as well because they may have their own regulations.

 

 

[turboplanner]

you can only OPERATE an RA in daylight but I have not found anything to state you can not walk the plane to the bowser,parking,hanger etc after the fact!You are NOT OPERATING the plane if your pushing /or dragging it along are you?

No, same as if you land 10 mins before last light, take 10 mins to unload then push it into the hangar.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Easy there Turb's. I was only posing this for thought & discussion. With a Rotax I don't taxi to bowser - the jerry cans of Mogas come to me! :peepwall:

It's the thoughts and discussions of the aerial trailbikers that worries me. We never did find out about the guy who went belly up in a Drifter, or similar, the night before one of the Natflys, trying to land after dark, and hid it in a shed.

 

 

[ayavner]

95.10 Flight conditions 6.1 (f)

 

95.32 Flight conditions 7.1 (g)

 

95.55 Flight conditions 7.1 (g)

 

all say only that "the aeroplane must only be flown during daylight hours", but I wasn't able to find anything there or otherwise in the RAAus Operations Manual that covers taxiing or other ground movement. Hard to believe they'd have left it to common sense or discretion, but maybe there is an overarching CASA regulation that I am not finding, or as J170 says, it'd be covered by individual airport operators.

 

Good discussion!

 

 

[Mick]

It's the thoughts and discussions of the aerial trailbikers that worries me. We never did find out about the guy who went belly up in a Drifter, or similar, the night before one of the Natflys, trying to land after dark, and hid it in a shed.

Not sure who you are refering to as "aerial trailbikers"?

 

I was only putting this out there to get people to give some thought to the practicalities and legalities prior to being in this situation. Don't know how you get from this to flying / landing after dark?

 

and the brakes on the Jab, I wouldn't think of trying to taxy in the dark.

Do Jab brakes get even worse after dark? I don't own one so I wouldn't know!

 

 

[farri]

You are NOT OPERATING the plane if your pushing /or dragging it along are you?

I know! Off topic, but! It reminded of one of the local Drifter owner/pilots ( No!not me!). He had his strip on his property but to get to it from the hangar he had to cross the main Bruce Higway so he would fire it up and taxi it across the road because he reasoned that this way it was quicker, therefore, safer! Problem was the law didn`t see it that way! It was illegal to taxi across but apperantly ok if the engine wasn`t running and he pushed it across but this was much slower and less safe.

 

Late one evening he nearly go cleaned up by an oncoming car that he hadn`t seen! Cops spoke to him on a couple of occasions but took no action!

 

He doesn`t cross the road anymore as he now has a strip on the same side as the hangar.

 

Frank.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Not sure who you are refering to as "aerial trailbikers"?I was only putting this out there to get people to give some thought to the practicalities and legalities prior to being in this situation. Don't know how you get from this to flying / landing after dark?

 

Do Jab brakes get even worse after dark? I don't own one so I wouldn't know!

I classify aerial trailbikers as those who start up, hop in and go, regardless of fuel checks, flight planning and regulations; for example guy who was seen landing on a beach in a Jab where three people got out, and a few days later managed to crash the aircraft in what should have been a routine runway landing. Another description would be IYM Impressionable Young Men. These people will often emulate something exciting they've read or been told, often with fatal consequences.\\

 

Sorry your laughter was misplaced, but I was not suggesting Jab brakes suddenly get worse after dark. If you had some Jab time you would know that the brakes are non-differential, and also not very effective - you need a miracle to get close to locking up the wheels. If you try to steer round a corner and brake at the same time, the brakes do have the power to overcome the nose wheel, so by applying both you finish up departing the the tangent at a speed you didn't want. You'll often see in Pilot Notes a report of a Jab over on one wing after landing.

 

So transpose this shortcoming to taxying at night with a feeble little spotlight which doesn't reach up to overhanging 206 wings until the last minute, and that was the point I was making.

 

As for your second paragraph, I got it from the thread heading = "Operating in the dark"

 

OPERATING IN THE DARK

 

To start with you would not be in Night VFR,but IFR, and I only just posted this information on another thread last night, which shows you the extensive study. cost, flying time and currency requirements to operate in the dark.

 

To qualify for an IFR Rating, a GA pilot has to have quite a lot of base experience in aircraft with hire costs well above the cost for RA.

 

It will then cost him about $18,000.00 for the IFR Rating Training.

 

This is a guide to the syllabus:http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/download/caaps/ops/5_13_ap1.pdf

 

The Rating requires a review test every two years, so that's a lot of re-cramming.

 

From memory, and after looking for an hour (thanks again CASA), three hours IFR flying per month - so about $900.00 per month, is required to stay current.

 

With that process in an IFR rated aircraft you'll be safe to fly in cloud.

 

You can't do this in RA.

 

Within the same document from the above link, you'll find the conditions for Night VFR (which, let's not forget again requires visual reference to the ground, that is not in the dark)

 

You'll see the requirements for the Night VFR Rating are nearly as onerous as the IFR rating.

 

You can't do this in RA, and you can't operate Night VFR in the dark in GA.

 

Apart from anything else you can't get the spatial orientation just by adding a "Landing light pack". For example, As you flare for landing your light is pointing up in the air, so you can't judge ground proximity or whether you are drifting or heading off the runway line.

 

So the scenario you painted cannot legally happen.

 

On the other hand a thread like this can kill people, and just in recent months we've seen someone in an Ultralight kill himself and passenger trying to land after dark.

 

 

[storchy neil]

as was discussed:blah blah: with verious people as far as we can make out their is no regs:book: that state that you connot taxi after last light or before first light safley safley as i have done before first light so as to have smouth air on the flight

 

the one thing that did come out was noise may an issue that is if the exhaust has fallen of the jaby or rotax

 

your safty is the main concern common sence is the issue dont need a new reg:book: neil

 

 

[Louis Moore]

I do not know where this sits with RA-AUS but being in Maintenance at one time, and on other occasions wanting to get away at first light I have often operated GA aircraft late at night without a night VFR rating, ground handling/taxing and re-fueling only.

 

I have even on more the one occasion started up about 15 minutes prior to first light, done my checks, warmed up the engine and sat at the holding point for a few minutes while I waited for the correct time/sunlight to appear over the horizon before take off. (As a side note I have some time night flying on my USA licence to back up my experience operating on the ground at night(no night rating in the USA, just part of the PPL))

 

The main factors I see with this is do you have the ability to NOT push it by taking off prior to first light!!!!! And as for landing that close to last light, no if you land that late, just go to bed and think about how crappy your flight planning was!!! Also if you do run into something, be prepared to cop the bill as I doubt you insurance would cover you!!

 

The big problem I have with the way Mick is asking his question at start of the thread (Not shooting you down at all Mick, have no issue with what your saying) is it sounds like a way of creating a convenient excuse for pushing the limits!!! Especially the technically legal night VFR. It's like a technical virgin, it's a lie!!!! Also Mick I am fairly confident (as in 99%) that unless the regs have changed, GA aircraft require a radio navigation aid to be rated night VFR. So unless you pack a NDB or VOR in your RA aircraft, it's not even close to legal!

 

 

[Mick]

The big problem I have with the way Mick is asking his question at start of the thread (Not shooting you down at all Mick, have no issue with what your saying) is it sounds like a way of creating a convenient excuse for pushing the limits!!!

 

On the other hand a thread like this can kill people, and just in recent months we've seen someone in an Ultralight kill himself and passenger trying to land after dark.

Did I type my the first line of my initial post in an invisible font or did you guys just skip right past it??????????

 

I have clearly stated that I am aware that RAAus canot fly at night and have in no way suggested that anyone else should.

 

 

[boingk]

Collapsible container available from hiking and outdoor shops with a capacity of 20L.

 

That'd do it I reckon.

 

Cheers - boingk

 

 

[Louis Moore]

Did I type my the first line of my initial post in an invisible font or did you guys just skip right past it??????????I have clearly stated that I am aware that RAAus canot fly at night and have in no way suggested that anyone else should.

My comment was not directly aimed at you Mick, more at everyone else reading the thread who may use it as a basis for pushing the limits. As you will also note in my response I admit myself to doing the very action you have asked about, on a regular basis and so long as it is not used as an excuse have no issue with it at all. I can hardly condem my own actions!!

 

 

[Thirsty]

If there is sufficient lighting around the field I don't see it as a problem. I think it's like most things in aviation - if there is no legislation forbidding it you must use your common sense. I'd taxi after last light if I could see what was around me (assuming there is no legislation saying no).

 

 

[djpacro]

Here is a solution for anyone who wants to have another bit of paper from CASA.

 

http://www.casa.gov.au/download/orders/cao20/2022.pdf

 

If anyone queries you, hide your pilot licence or certificate and show an official authorisation to taxi which is not limited to day VFR.

 

 

[Mick]

Here is a solution for anyone who wants to have another bit of paper from CASA.http://www.casa.gov.au/download/orders/cao20/2022.pdf

If anyone queries you, hide your pilot licence or certificate and show an official authorisation to taxi which is not limited to day VFR.

I looked into that previously when working for a maintenance organisation and my boss wanted me to be able to taxi and do engine runs in GA aircraft but I only have RAAus Cert.

 

 

[Mick]

thats a totally different thing Mick

Well aware of that CFI, I would not like anyones chances of "hiding" their license / cert either.

 

Just pointing out a real use / need for a taxi authorisation.

 

 

[storchy neil]

djp you get the prize as stated what you pointed out is permision to taxi the aircraft noted on that permit you dont have to be a pilot neil