New Engine Options for Jabiru –Rotax or Lycoming

[Guest john]

If the so called "experts" who have indicated on this site that the Jabiru engine is reliable & it is the owners lack of expertise that is the causing the problems with the engine, then supply a simple explanation why there are now regular advertisements in the RAAus monthly magazine for

 

1. Engine Cooling Modification kits

 

2. Fuel Injection kits

 

3. Alternator conversions

 

Are the manufacturers of these modifications, providing these kits for the fun of it for something to do or are they doing it to improve the reliablity of these engines?

 

 

[jetjr]

"Are the manufacturers of these modifications, providing these kits for the fun of it for something to do or are they doing it to improve the reliablity of these engines?"

 

They are doing it to make money, just like any performance parts maker. In fact it shows these guys think the basic engine is sound.

 

There arent many out there doing these conversions as far as I know. Its great stuff but expensive and wont help with many of the problems.

 

Temperature is a key problem in all air cooled engines, older Jabirus did have issues and this is where the new heads are targeted. Recent versions have largely solved it. Most aircraft dont even have temp monitoring equipment fitted and as a result run them way too hot/lean unknowingly.

 

Fuel injection kits - havent seen an add for these unless you mean the replacement carb thats out there. This new carb doenst fix problems with EGT spread but gives mixture control.

 

Altenator conversions - a good thing but adds weight and in standard setup isnt needed, been around for a long time. (Camit - Jab engine maker - actually made them and still do)

 

Jabiru can add all this and more but there will no longer be price competitive. In saying that there are plenty of things Jabiru could work on improving.

 

The 912 is not an option for 3300 conversions either so your only looking at a portion of the engines out there. Id be surprised if Hedlow was able to continue training in the modified aircraft you detail.

 

The owner, operator and maintenance expertise is definitely lacking. Some appaling evidence of LAME and L2 works are out there. Basic stuff too outlined in SB not adhered to, hardware store parts, wrong parts, parts reused, wrong head nuts, wrong oil, hoses not replaced, fuel additives used.

 

This maybe not causing the problems but sure adding to them.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

If its a maintenance issue, why don't we hear of Rotax falling out of the sky? Assuming the cowboy L2 and LAMEs work on more than Jabirus? I believe the issue with Jabiru is quality control, as some engines seem faultless and some are dogs.

 

 

[jetjr]

Because 912 are an exceptionally good engine, well sorted out and as a result far more expensive both to buy and repair. Same reputation isnt applicable to all Rotax products though.

 

QA is no doubt a problem with Jabiru as with all small run production products.

 

 

[planesmaker]

True, just buy an amateur built aircraft in the first place.

Read the tech manual!!!!! section7.5.4 here's the link if it makes it easier for you. Tom

http://www.raa.asn.au/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Section-7.5.4-Cancellation-of-alteration-of-an-LSA-special-certificate-of-airworthiness-or-experimental-certificate.pdf

 

 

[Bubbleboy]

I attended Mr Stiff's talk on aircraft design at AUSFLY. It was a great talk actually about how it all came about. As usual, the question was asked about the engine problems and the response from the mans mouth was something to the effect of "we build these engines to a price". As far as I am concerned, that explains it all. Like anything, you get what you pay for. Not saying its right but that statement sums it up!

 

I have no opinion on Jabs as I have never flown one.

 

Scotty

 

 

[dazza 38]

I have to laugh at CAMITS spiel about quality. We produce quality products under AS/NZS ASO 9001:2008 blah blah "Guarantees to delivery first class quality products. Not always, as it seems.

 

 

[David Isaac]

This Rotax conversion on Jabs is old hat. For the record, down our way there is a Rotax 912 conversion on a 24 registered J160 operating under an STC (Supplemental Type Certificate) that the owner spent a small fortune on obtaining. He did it out of frustration having lost four engines in five years on his J160 he purchased new. The aircraft continues to be used for training and a lot more reliably I might add.

 

 

[Jabiru7252]

Can we change this thread heading from "New Engine Options for Jabiru –Rotax or Lycoming" to "Let's slag Jabiru again"?

 

 

[David Isaac]

Interesting how any criticism of Jabiru is seen as unwarranted and offensive.

 

The mind boggles. I don't like seeing the criticism of an Australian product anymore than anyone else, but Jabiru engines like it or not appear to have a disproportionate share of issues. In all other regards they get no more criticism than others. Perhaps we could all be a little more objective and less emotional on this issue. I do agree, the boat anchor suggestions are not constructive at all.

 

What should be fairly obvious is that if there was no market for alternate engines, setting up alternate engines would not be worth the effort.

 

 

[David Isaac]

x

 

 

[facthunter]

If a 24 cannot become( dropdown) to a 19, and a GA can be modified and fly as experimental ( as most warbirds do) would not the RAAus be imposing stricter standards than apply in GA, and that has always been an over-riding policy. ( To NOT have stricter requirements apply than in GA). I can see that a 19 should not become a 24.. Nev

 

 

[facthunter]

I do think a lot of the "comment" on Jabiru's is unhelpfull. They are not a perfect product, but you would be surprised what other products have surprising faults too. At resk of repeating myself, the Jab is not a high-volume product and is essentiallty sold into a market where Installation quality, usage patterns, care, maintenance, fuel quality assurance etc are extremely variable and a lot outside the control of the manufacturer.

 

Any other engine installed will likewise be exposed to the same environment. One of the reasons the Rotax 912 series does so well is that it is not tampered with as much and has Nikasil cylinders that don't corrode. The Jab does need routine maintenance to survive. Ie it probably needs a "top" every 300 hours.. Merlins were never over this time either and gipsy series engines need top overhauls at about the same frequency. Jabiru parts are very cheap. I would chuck a set of exhaust valves in at the above time also. Any other engine possibility will cost heaps more for the bits. I like the Lyc 0-233 as well as the Continental 0-200D ( which I haven't heard much of lately), but they will never be as smooth as a six cylinder Jab. In any case I would look after any engine I had installed as if my life depended on it ( which it does). IF you are considering a Lycoming 4 as substitute for the Jab six I would want a test run as to compare the noise and vibration, as part of your decision. The motor is a proper aero engine, and you are paying for that, but it is more of a "chugger". Nev.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

When you take into account the extra maintenance costs associated with the Jabiru the Rotax doesn't work out to be that much more expensive. When you consider the implications of an engine failure and forced landing the savings with the Jabiru don't seem that worthwile for me.

 

 

[Guest Escadrille]

When you take into account the extra maintenance costs associated with the Jabiru the Rotax doesn't work out to be that much more expensive. When you consider the implications of an engine failure and forced landing the savings with the Jabiru don't seem that worthwile for me.

An engine failure should be an eventuality the pilot manages by careful maintenance and flying practices. However engine failures can occur even to the most risk averse of people.. Vale Terry Kronk...

 

 

[facthunter]

A good point. No matter what you fit there is a chance of it failing. You fit 2 engines and then you have to upgrade your flying skills to do assy and if you don't do that well you die too. People let engines run out of fuel, don't maintain them . No engine is maintenance free. You must be prepared for an engine failure at any time. There are no absolutes it's all a matter of proportion. If this is not acceptable then get another hobby. Coming from the terrible two strokes that this movement started with and put up with, A jabiru engine is miles ahead and affordable. Put them out of the sky and you are in a worse situation as a movement. The thing was designed to be simple and it is and it is doing a job. it's a free country and you are not forced to fly in one. I have, plenty of times and instructed in them also. I would be less apprehensive generally overall than in many other aeroplanes out there.. That is the way I see it. Nev

 

 

[fly_tornado]

The dogma of Jabirus being the victim of poor maintenance defines how Jabiru deal with the reliability issue. All the maintenance in the world isn't going to undue poor workmanship.

 

 

[facthunter]

What are your engineering qualifications ft. I don't think it is a "dogma" of something being a "victim" of anything. These are all emotive terms that have nothing to do with what is actually happening out there, . I try to put up some facts and you make sweeping statements in general terms . What do you really mean ft?. Some engines require periodic adjustment and inspection. That is a FACT. There is no aero engine that doesn't require monitoring and inspection. Nev

 

 

[fly_tornado]

For sure, I am a keen observer. One can only go by the horror stories one hears and your own personal experience. Empirical evidence seems to favour my theory about poor quality control.

 

 

[facthunter]

I don't know what your end point is. Do you want to see these motors out of the air? It's possible to comment but there are many users out there getting quite good results from these engines, and a scare campain isn't really contributing to anything positive . The Company back their product quite well as far as cost is concerned. Quality control is more a matter of fits and tolerences , materials quality etc, which I don't think are a particular problem on these motors. They do need attention to cooling in some installations. If you overheat any motor it will fail especially if it is under a lot of load .If the valves are not seated well the engine will fail also. That's why compression testing is done. I recommend pulling through of the engine prior to start each day and knowing what a good engine feels like. I would do that wih a lawnmower even . Some Lycomings need valve attention quite early in their lives too, and IF you leave them sitting for a while and don't inhibit them the bores will corrode too ( Just like Jabiru's). The average person doesn't have a great knowledge of looking after these things and a motor car is often serviced at 20,000 Km intervals or if it knocks and smoke comes out of it.. Aircraft engines are not like that, and people must realise it or will have strife at some stage. Nev

 

 

[Guest Escadrille]

I don't know what your end point is. Do you want to see these motors out of the air? It's possible to comment but there are many users out there getting quite good results from these engines, and a scare campain isn't really contributing to anything positive . The Company back their product quite well as far as cost is concerned. Quality control is more a matter of fits and tolerences , materials quality etc, which I don't think are a particular problem on these motors. They do need attention to cooling in some installations. If you overheat any motor it will fail especially if it is under a lot of load .If the valves are not seated well the engine will fail also. That's why compression testing is done. I recommend pulling through of the engine prior to start each day and knowing what a good engine feels like. I would do that wih a lawnmower even . Some Lycomings need valve attention quite early in their lives too, and IF you leave them sitting for a while and don't inhibit them the bores will corrode too ( Just like Jabiru's). The average person doesn't have a great knowledge of looking after these things and a motor car is often serviced at 20,000 Km intervals or if it knocks and smoke comes out of it.. Aircraft engines are not like that, and people must realise it or will have strife at some stage. Nev

Nev,

 

Its pointless trying to have reasonable discussion with the anonymous Mr Flat Tornado..he just loves a stir..hence the misuse of terms like empirical"evidence". His opinion is best ignored and treated as a suspected troll.

 

Andy

 

 

[M61A1]

I have to laugh at CAMITS spiel about quality. We produce quality products under AS/NZS ASO 9001:2008 blah blah "Guarantees to delivery first class quality products. Not always, as it seems.

It is quite possible to produce a product under any of the quality standards that meet the standard, but not meet an ideal standard of engineering. Meaning that ISO and othe standards are just documenting that you have produced/done something in accordance with a procedure that you wrote. An engineering standard ie:clearances/tolerances, are completely different.

[dazza 38]

It is quite possible to produce a product under any of the quality standards that meet the standard, but not meet an ideal standard of engineering. Meaning that ISO and othe standards are just documenting that you have produced/done something in accordance with a procedure that you wrote. An engineering standard ie:clearances/tolerances, are completely different.

Yup, Camit are also current holders of a CASR21 production certificate.

 

 

[JabSP6]

I ask anyone here that wants to knock the quality of work from a company that has spent millions of dollars setting up with specialist equipment to do a specific job and meet exacting standards, Have you ever been thru the company's doors to have a look for yourself and ask the person responsible (Ian) for building these motors about his machines and workmanship?

 

I have set foot through Ian's doors and have seen these CnC Machines in action and watched the CMM (co-ordinate measuring machine) in the aircon controlled environment and seen documentation that is taken.

 

I must say that it is a credit to Ian. This is one top class facility.

 

Camit only make parts to the standard that Jabiru specify and are often supplied components by Jabiru to assembly these engines. They may even come up with ideas to improve these things, like many people on this forum, but are not allowed to do anything legally without the consent of Jabiru.

 

So those who wish to bad mouth others and listen to all the rumors instead of finding out the actual facts, take the time to have a look through the factory doors yourself, talk with Ian about the machinery and his production methods.

 

Then we shall see if you have the same opinion.

 

Safe Flying

 

JabSP6

 

 

[dazza 38]

I ask anyone here that wants to knock the quality of work from a company that has spent millions of dollars setting up with specialist equipment to do a specific job and meet exacting standards, Have you ever been thru the company's doors to have a look for yourself and ask the person responsible (Ian) for building these motors about his machines and workmanship?I have set foot through Ian's doors and have seen these CnC Machines in action and watched the CMM (co-ordinate measuring machine) in the aircon controlled environment and seen documentation that is taken.

I must say that it is a credit to Ian. This is one top class facility.

 

Camit only make parts to the standard that Jabiru specify and are often supplied components by Jabiru to assembly these engines. They may even come up with ideas to improve these things, like many people on this forum, but are not allowed to do anything legally without the consent of Jabiru.

 

So those who wish to bad mouth others and listen to all the rumors instead of finding out the actual facts, take the time to have a look through the factory doors yourself, talk with Ian about the machinery and his production methods.

 

Then we shall see if you have the same opinion.

 

Safe Flying

 

JabSP6

I dont think that anybody is bagging Camits State of the art Manufacturing facility. I am sure your right as well with Camit having great ideas to improve the engine. Its getting the customer to listen to the ideas.In this case Jabiru. They must get frustrated as well as alot of other people.Peeps can go to Camits website & see how well it is professionally set up. www.camit.net