New Engine Options for Jabiru –Rotax or Lycoming

[winsor68]

An engine failure should be an eventuality the pilot manages by careful maintenance and flying practices. However engine failures can occur even to the most risk averse of people.. Vale Terry Kronk...

Off topic... but ironic and I am guessing I may cop some flak for saying this...

On the day Terry Kronk died a Youtube video appeared on my "feed" showing a beautiful experimental P51 Mustang being flown by the builder... I watched it and it was very impressive... but I did think "He doesn't leave himself much option for an engine failure"... Later that day I learned the video was of Terry Kronk.

 

Just saying... even the most risk averse are basically "forced" to take risks if we wish to fly... or not if we all just stayed home. As an example... many airstrips are not overly long... many are surrounded by bush.... Do we as pilots not operate out of these airstrips?

 

Again... off topic... Sorry. I guess it relates to the issue of relying upon our engines rather than always flying as if it is about to stop... Does anyone really do it 100% of the time...

 

 

[Guest john]

Does anybody who knew Terry Kronks Mustang, know what type of engine was installed in the airframe ?

 

 

[M61A1]

Does anybody who knew Terry Kronks Mustang, know what type of engine was installed in the airframe ?

If I recall correctly........a supercharged 383 chev with I don't know what redrive.

[frank marriott]

I don't know what your end point is. Do you want to see these motors out of the air? It's possible to comment but there are many users out there getting quite good results from these engines, and a scare campain isn't really contributing to anything positive . The Company back their product quite well as far as cost is concerned. Quality control is more a matter of fits and tolerences , materials quality etc, which I don't think are a particular problem on these motors. They do need attention to cooling in some installations. If you overheat any motor it will fail especially if it is under a lot of load .If the valves are not seated well the engine will fail also. That's why compression testing is done. I recommend pulling through of the engine prior to start each day and knowing what a good engine feels like. I would do that wih a lawnmower even . Some Lycomings need valve attention quite early in their lives too, and IF you leave them sitting for a while and don't inhibit them the bores will corrode too ( Just like Jabiru's). The average person doesn't have a great knowledge of looking after these things and a motor car is often serviced at 20,000 Km intervals or if it knocks and smoke comes out of it.. Aircraft engines are not like that, and people must realise it or will have strife at some stage. Nev

There is about 4 people on this site that stop a thread from being infornative and the only reasion I haven't blocked their posts is that a thread is hard to follow if you block the previous post.

 

Most posts are informative but the continual crap [same comments from about 4 people being repeated over and over] have stopped me from being involved [i.e making posts which may be relevant]

 

I read but ignor the unhelpful commets from the nonidentified 4 but in the interest of this site being more informative then I would suggest that it might return to what it was before when I started looking some 4 years ago.

 

Friends of the obvious 4 might have a private yarn to them and inform them that there is other opinons then theirs [they are not accepted as experts] I know of a few RAA/CPL drivers who no longer visit this site becaues of the continued crap that is put forward by the obvious 4.

 

I only make this post to make the point that I am sick of the continual unhelpful comments of some and will make other arrangements myself as well .

 

All info is great, but I have [maybe just me and so be it] noticed that the info now is now more about low time pilots seeking info as the informed builders and maintenance people have eithter left [or been banned - probably involved with unsuitable comments with regards to the afore mentioned people.]

 

Just my ovservations over the last 4 years - I haven't been banned only becaues I haven't posted my actual thoughts - and don't think it is appropiate so I will not - but helpful comments are great but crap should be left to social media areas like facebook or the like.

 

Maybe it is just me

 

FrankM

 

 

[facthunter]

Frank, can you clarify if you agree with me or am I one of the 4 who deter you from saying what you want to. I hope I am a voice of reason with a call for supporting facts, in a discussion.. Not a knocker. Nev

 

 

[frank marriott]

Frank, can you clarify if you agree with me or am I one of the 4 who deter you from saying what you want to. I hope I am a voice of reason with a call for supporting facts, in a discussion.. Not a knocker. Nev

Nev

 

No I read your coments with great interest as they are based on fact. Any comments based on fact I am happy t0 consider - that includes all of yours that I have read.

 

I am happy to read other opinions which I may or may not agree with still like reading them as I might learn something - My reference was to the same crap put up by a few over and over. Even their opioions I a am happy to read but the same crap day after day................

 

Keep putting your informed opinions forward and most will read them with interest.

 

FrankM

 

 

[winsor68]

You are right Frank on one point Frank... Not very appropriate. Sorry you feel that way.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Frank I understand that Team Jabiru don't like the issue. Its my hope that one day Jabiru or the RAA or CASA will do the right thing and release a comprehensive audit of Jabiru's engines in Australia and the matter will finally be put to rest.

 

 

[frank marriott]

Frank I understand that Team Jabiru don't like the issue. Its my hope that one day Jabiru or the RAA or CASA will do the right thing and release a comprehensive audit of Jabiru's engines in Australia and the matter will finally be put to rest.

I am not supporting any aircraft or engine - You have your own opinion and so be it, but I do not think we need to hear about it every day. - We already know your opinion and far be it for me to try to change your opinion, I do not have a problem with Rotax or Jab - the fact that I currenty fly a Jab is not that I am recomending them - I have flown dogs before in GA - My point was do we need to hear the opinion every day. I have been flying for the last 30 odd years so I have experiened some problems with aircraft as no doubt you could appreciate but life goes on.

 

FrankM

 

 

[facthunter]

For whatever reason it is difficult to have a serious productive discussion about the Jabiru engine on this , and I presume most other forums. I can understand the frustration of people who have an investment in these aircraft and schools to run who are operating these engines having them bagged . Many comments are just opinions and many failed engines are not properly serviced or have not applied all AD's.There are too many variables to make absolute statements like some do.

 

On the surface a new engine failing with low hours even, cannot be just a straight out blame thing without investigating all the conditions and circumstances. Not all the failures are the same component either. This subject has been a bit of "if you don't bag the Jabiru, you are biased". Some operators get a good run from their engines. Why is that?.

 

A friend of mine sold a couple of J-230's. One at least flew to New Zealand for delivery. Nev

 

 

[jetjr]

Frank I understand that Team Jabiru don't like the issue. Its my hope that one day Jabiru or the RAA or CASA will do the right thing and release a comprehensive audit of Jabiru's engines in Australia and the matter will finally be put to rest.

As Nev asked - what do you want to see happen? How will it be "put to rest?' Will you be happy if they are removed from sale?

 

The most likely and easiest thing CASA will do is scrap the entire self maintenance exemption for RAA. No audit required, they would be OK making this call based on the opinions and rumours reported here.

 

Just as its easy for Jabiru to blame poor maintenance practices its even easier for maintainers to blame product especially if they are qualified and have reputations to protect.

 

 

[eightyknots]

There is about 4 people on this site that stop a thread from being infornative and the only reasion I haven't blocked their posts is that a thread is hard to follow if you block the previous post.Most posts are informative but the continual crap [same comments from about 4 people being repeated over and over] have stopped me from being involved [i.e making posts which may be relevant]

 

I read but ignor the unhelpful commets from the nonidentified 4 but in the interest of this site being more informative then I would suggest that it might return to what it was before when I started looking some 4 years ago.

 

Friends of the obvious 4 might have a private yarn to them and inform them that there is other opinons then theirs [they are not accepted as experts] I know of a few RAA/CPL drivers who no longer visit this site becaues of the continued crap that is put forward by the obvious 4.

 

I only make this post to make the point that I am sick of the continual unhelpful comments of some and will make other arrangements myself as well .

 

All info is great, but I have [maybe just me and so be it] noticed that the info now is now more about low time pilots seeking info as the informed builders and maintenance people have eithter left [or been banned - probably involved with unsuitable comments with regards to the afore mentioned people.]

 

Just my ovservations over the last 4 years - I haven't been banned only becaues I haven't posted my actual thoughts - and don't think it is appropiate so I will not - but helpful comments are great but crap should be left to social media areas like facebook or the like.

 

Maybe it is just me

 

FrankM

Frank, may I suggest that you send a Private Message to the Gang of Four that you are referring to? Perhaps, a gentle, quiet word from an aggrieved Forumite (without the openness of a Forum visible to all) could work wonders?

 

One can only hope that this will have the desired effect.

 

 

[REastwood]

If we are given the correct information then we can plan better. Our Jabiru was maintained according to (and above and beyond) the schedule required. We completed the Jabiru maintenance course and applied the knowledge to our maintenance routine. The engine was pulled through before every flight and we knew what to feel/look for. Yet at 283 hours we suspect (because up to this day Jabiru will not tell us what went wrong!) an exhaust valve failed 35 minutes into the flight destroying the engine. If Jabiru had said, "oh your from SA and only get 100/130 AVGAS, you better do a top overhaul every 200 hours", or "yes, our valves can burn off in less than 15 minutes if they stick open at any time" (a guy from the workshop told us this after the failure). We could not, due to RA-Aus rules, change or modify the aircraft as it was used for training. So it does annoy me when people say "oh you didn't maintain it right", "there must have been some unknown condition or circumstance", "you didn't treat the engine right" etc. etc. We know now (and Jabiru has confirmed it) that the engines require "more frequent maintenance" if using 100/130 (the only AVGAS available in SA), and after telling us that "you CANNOT run it on MOGAS", they have changed their story and MOGAS is allowable.

 

The J230 was a nice aircraft to fly, a great tourer and interesting training aircraft, if Jabiru would certify the fitment of another engine, be it Continental, Rotax, U/L etc. then training facilities could have a good aircraft that is nice to fly for hiring out and a good trainer for day to day work.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Or just accept that as long as you own a Jab these threads are going to upset you. Sell your Jabiru, problem solved.

 

 

[facthunter]

Wake up to yourself Tornado. You make a lot of noise, criticise everything RAAus do. Never offer significant facts , just allude to horrendous occurrences. It really is fair to ask what your game is. why don't you step up front and run for something or just pull your head in and let us get on with enjoying ourselves before you pull the whole scene down around our heads. You have succeeded in getting a response from me if you are just a troll, but it is put up or shut up mate. Nev

 

 

[jetjr]

So it does annoy me when people say "oh you didn't maintain it right", "there must have been some unknown condition or circumstance", "you didn't treat the engine right" etc. etc. We know now (and Jabiru has confirmed it) that the engines require "more frequent maintenance" if using 100/130 (the only AVGAS available in SA), and after telling us that "you CANNOT run it on MOGAS", they have changed their story and MOGAS is allowable..

Sad story and everyone sympathises Im sure. Jabiru do have a habit of not providing full story on teardown. Stuck valves are a pretty common problem.

 

I havent read ever that you cant use PULP, just that 100LL avgas is prefered mainly due to degradation and vapour lock problems.

 

If SA (or anywhere esle you fill up) doesnt have 100LL then your operating outside requirements. Lead deposits are a problem even with 100LL so Im not surprised they say the heads need to be cleaned more often, if left there they can jam under valves. This was in an SB I think.

 

What were the EGT and CHT on each cylinder before the stoppage? I believe fitment of this equipment should be standard on these engines and would turn many issues into minor repairs.

 

What does need improvement is dissemination of problems and fixes both from Jabiru and users. Theres plenty of info out there but so often people shut up as they cant be bothered commenting on threads where some (not meaning you RE) just tear down the brand for fun. Some spout opinion and fixes with little of no first hand knowledge too.

 

With no proper reporting system in place these forums are often more useful than a good LAME or owner without experience in the make. Trouble is you have the time to sort the rat crap from the coffee.

 

In regards to other engines for the J230 there isnt many suitable options. 914 is the only real contender I think and has it share of problems, one being cost.

 

 

[facthunter]

The 914 is a great bit of work but it is costly, complex, and there is no way the average person will want to spanner it. It would be a return to dealer thing. It's also got a time limit on full power. (As many engines do).

 

A comment on exhaust valve failures. I would wonder about the avgas in SA. I can't think of any specific reason why the higher octane would be a problem unless it has a much higher lead content.( Vev might know) Lead can build up on the valve seats but this occurs mainly when the engine is not running hot enough for the lead to perform it's normal function. If the engine was running lean on any cylinder on full power there could be an overheat and weakening of the valve stem at any number of hours in service. There could also be a possibility that the valve stem to guide fit allowed the valve to partially jamb. This will cause an overheat and warping/ possible failure. Nev

 

 

[jetjr]

The guide fit is a long running problem, all sorts of reports going back ages. They even had a run of crook guides.

 

I myself have had a new head where valve had grabbed. Leakage and scum in guides can be the cause or temperature problems. High temp was seen.

 

I then upon inspection saw push rod sitting outside rocker cup. Snapped it back in, engine ran fine. Pulled the head anyway and returned to Jabiru they reamed guides reassembled and tested for free. No problem since

 

Guide clearance is very sensitive measurement.

 

Suggest inspections inside rocker cover for brown staining around valve stem indicated leaking and temp problem. No big deal for solid lifter models as these are opened at service anyway.

 

100/130 leaves 25% more deposits and may require more maintenance - http://www.jabiru.net.au/Service%20Bulletins/Engine%20files/JSL007-4_Fuel_Guidance.pdf

 

 

[facthunter]

A pushrod popped out of the rocker cup is a pretty sure sign of a partially seized guide. Ideally the engine is designed so this cannot happen. Valve spring breakage is another cause. The advantage of the solid lifter motors is that you get a chance to check what is going on up the top. If you know what you are doing you can get a reasonable indication of the valve to guide clearance. You have to turn the engine to get the valve when it is just starting to lift to check it. ( I'm NOT talking of the tappett clearence). Nev

 

 

[jetjr]

If you know what you are doing you can get a reasonable indication of the valve to guide clearance. You have to turn the engine to get the valve when it is just starting to lift to check it. ( I'm NOT talking of the tappett clearence). Nev

How what do you measure at this point?

Jabiru have a series of gauge rods turned to various diameters, and its a matter of running them through guide and they have a go/no go limit. A very gentle ream is all that needed to fix a tight one.

 

The rod cant come right out of the cup and engine was still running OK, valve would have been open a little. Its also likely the rod would have reseated itself too.

 

Something I dont understand is why solid lifter engines seem to have less of these major failures.

 

 

[Herm]

Or just accept that as long as you own a Jab these threads are going to upset you. Sell your Jabiru, problem solved.

I own a Jabiru and I find the treads usefull. However fly_tornado I find your comments agumentative and un-helpfull. You offer little constructive comment and repeat the same comments over and over again. Not sure if you even own an aircraft, but noticed you fly in a Drifter. I am sure thier was many problems with them also over the years. ( I flew them years ago and fly nice). This is the same with many other aircraft and engines. Comments like yours turn this site into a Ground Hog forum.. I am not supprised that many are not posting helpfull information on this site when met with the same reteric. I am open to hearing about problems that other OWNERS of Jabiru may have had in the hope that we learn and improve from them. Instead we get the problem the friend of my Dads flying instructor that knew this guy that knew a bloke that had this problem with a Jabiru motor.. Was the same problem that all of them had. Enough!

 

Mardy

 

 

[fly_tornado]

I get that Team Jabiru don't like my participation on these threads, how have these threads actually helped you? Don't they just reinforce your belief that Jabiru are safe and economical alternative to Rotax?

 

 

[dazza 38]

Sad story and everyone sympathises Im sure. Jabiru do have a habit of not providing full story on teardown. Stuck valves are a pretty common problem.I havent read ever that you cant use PULP, just that 100LL avgas is prefered mainly due to degradation and vapour lock problems.

If SA (or anywhere esle you fill up) doesnt have 100LL then your operating outside requirements. Lead deposits are a problem even with 100LL so Im not surprised they say the heads need to be cleaned more often, if left there they can jam under valves. This was in an SB I think.

 

What were the EGT and CHT on each cylinder before the stoppage? I believe fitment of this equipment should be standard on these engines and would turn many issues into minor repairs.

 

What does need improvement is dissemination of problems and fixes both from Jabiru and users. Theres plenty of info out there but so often people shut up as they cant be bothered commenting on threads where some (not meaning you RE) just tear down the brand for fun. Some spout opinion and fixes with little of no first hand knowledge too.

 

With no proper reporting system in place these forums are often more useful than a good LAME or owner without experience in the make. Trouble is you have the time to sort the rat crap from the coffee.

 

[in regards to other engines for the J230 there isnt many suitable options. 914 is the only real contender I think and has it share of problems, one being cost.]

Would the UL engine be a possible alternative ? (For people looking for a alternative)

 

 

[JabSP6]

Would the UL engine be a possible alternative ? (For people looking for a alternative)

Dazza

 

I've done some research into this motor as a replacement.

 

I personally am very happy with my 3300 Jabiru motor is my SP6.

 

I am also happy to compile this info for everyone to see without an biased opinion.

 

After all that is what this forum is supposed to be about. Using the vast knowledge and experience of all here so that we can all make our own decissions rather than have to read all the negative critism that always seems to find its way here.

 

The UL motor is a possible alternative but there are a few things that would need to be done first.

 

This info is directly from the UL Power Site so it is from the UL Manufacturer not just made up.

 

1. The Motor will only bolt up to the 2200 Jabiru motor mount. The 3300 Jabiru Mount is different in that the vertical distance between the top and bottom mounting points are longer than the 2200 mount.
    
    
   
2. Although the ULPower engineis considerably shorter in the volume behind the engine mount plate when compared to the Jabiru, our engine's starter ring gear has a larger diameter and is further back from the engine mount plate. An existing Jabiru mount might have a cross brace on the top section which interferes with our starter ring gear. If the engine mount does have a top cross brace, it may be feasible to transfer it to the lower section. Since the Jabiru's carburettor will often not allow a horizontal cross brace in the lower section, the brace is placed on the top.
    
    
   
3. The ULPower engine is a larger capacity engine producing more torque and weighing more than the Jabiru 2200. If the safety factors used in the design of the Jabiru engine mount have sufficiently large design safety factors, then it may well be suitable for the ULPower engine, but this could only be checked if the design calculations are available.
    
    
   

 

 

All this info means that the UL Motor could only be fitted to Jabirus with the 2200 mount and this mount and firewall attachment points would have to engineered to carry the addition weight and power of this motor.

 

This i believe has been done with the Rotax 912 and 914 motors so as long as you find someone willing to sign off on this you could use it in a Jabiru.

 

I have put together the info on both motors in this table.

 

I couldn't find any info on the price of the UL motors to be able to put into the table as this would also assist in someones decission but i'm sure someone will be able to help out here.

 

Motor Type Max Power HP Weight KG

 

Jabiru 2200 80 62.8

 

UL260i 97 72.3

 

UL260iS 107 72.3

 

UL260iF 100 72.3

 

UL350i 118 78.4

 

UL350iS 130 78.4

 

Jabiru 3300 120 83.5

 

Sorry this table didn't turn out the way it was before i added it.

 

There are 6 cylinder UL Motors available now but i couldn't find the weight or price info on these motors. The HP outputs of the 6 cylinders range from 140 - 200 hp.

 

I hope that this info can assist in those looking for options.

 

Safe Flying

 

JabSP6

 

 

[dazza 38]

DazzaI've done some research into this motor as a replacement.

I personally am very happy with my 3300 Jabiru motor is my SP6.

 

I am also happy to compile this info for everyone to see without an biased opinion.

 

After all that is what this forum is supposed to be about. Using the vast knowledge and experience of all here so that we can all make our own decissions rather than have to read all the negative critism that always seems to find its way here.

 

The UL motor is a possible alternative but there are a few things that would need to be done first.

 

This info is directly from the UL Power Site so it is from the UL Manufacturer not just made up.

 

1. The Motor will only bolt up to the 2200 Jabiru motor mount. The 3300 Jabiru Mount is different in that the vertical distance between the top and bottom mounting points are longer than the 2200 mount.
    
    
   
2. Although the ULPower engineis considerably shorter in the volume behind the engine mount plate when compared to the Jabiru, our engine's starter ring gear has a larger diameter and is further back from the engine mount plate. An existing Jabiru mount might have a cross brace on the top section which interferes with our starter ring gear. If the engine mount does have a top cross brace, it may be feasible to transfer it to the lower section. Since the Jabiru's carburettor will often not allow a horizontal cross brace in the lower section, the brace is placed on the top.
    
    
   
3. The ULPower engine is a larger capacity engine producing more torque and weighing more than the Jabiru 2200. If the safety factors used in the design of the Jabiru engine mount have sufficiently large design safety factors, then it may well be suitable for the ULPower engine, but this could only be checked if the design calculations are available.
    
    
   

 

 

All this info means that the UL Motor could only be fitted to Jabirus with the 2200 mount and this mount and firewall attachment points would have to engineered to carry the addition weight and power of this motor.

 

This i believe has been done with the Rotax 912 and 914 motors so as long as you find someone willing to sign off on this you could use it in a Jabiru.

 

I have put together the info on both motors in this table.

 

I couldn't find any info on the price of the UL motors to be able to put into the table as this would also assist in someones decission but i'm sure someone will be able to help out here.

 

Motor Type Max Power HP Weight KG

 

Jabiru 2200 80 62.8

 

UL260i 97 72.3

 

UL260iS 107 72.3

 

UL260iF 100 72.3

 

UL350i 118 78.4

 

UL350iS 130 78.4

 

Jabiru 3300 120 83.5

 

Sorry this table didn't turn out the way it was before i added it.

 

There are 6 cylinder UL Motors available now but i couldn't find the weight or price info on these motors. The HP outputs of the 6 cylinders range from 140 - 200 hp.

 

I hope that this info can assist in those looking for options.

 

Safe Flying

 

JabSP6

Great information there.Thankyou