Thirsty Posted October 17, 2012 Posted October 17, 2012 Well we had the piston circlip issue sorted out a few weeks ago and while doing the test flight the pilot pulled the power back on the base turn and the engine stopped! It wouldn't restart so he put it down in a barley crop not far from the runway. We've had a problem with the carb on this plane for a while where after cruising and pulling the throttle back the engine would start to die like it was starving for fuel. It would then recover after a couple of seconds and all would be well until the cruise portion. Anyway, we swapped the carb out and the problem went away. Jab supplied the carb under warranty so all good now. I suspect the slide is not sliding properly or the diaphragm has a hole. To end this story I flew the plane out of the crop and my mate took a video of the event. You'll notice I pull it into the air at a fairly slow rate of knots - this was due to the plane not accelerating anymore so I used the short field technique of dropping full flap as I was rolling and just getting it off the ground but still in ground effect then accelerating and flying away. Very exciting! 3
Tomo Posted October 17, 2012 Posted October 17, 2012 Just be careful doing that with small wheels, wheel barrow effect can be quite unpleasant! Nice job however, we'll done.
Bandit12 Posted October 17, 2012 Posted October 17, 2012 Nice work overall, I bet your mate was watching and wondering whether you were going to lift off at all!
Thirsty Posted October 17, 2012 Author Posted October 17, 2012 Yeah it was a bit marginal. No chance of wheelbarrowing as I had the stick well back. Notice the flaps were up as I started the roll - less drag to get me going! We also emptied everything out of the plane except a few litres of fuel and me :) 1
Guest Andys@coffs Posted October 17, 2012 Posted October 17, 2012 Hmmm in this case it was bloody Bing.....and if we got rid of them, then the amount of motion lotion coverters available for use dwindles somewhat
Thirsty Posted October 17, 2012 Author Posted October 17, 2012 Yeah in this case it's not the jab that's the problem. This engine has actually been running perfectly up til this incident.
Thirsty Posted October 17, 2012 Author Posted October 17, 2012 That was funny! I sort of agree with him but not for new students. Keep it standard until you can do it well then mix it up.
Ultralights Posted October 17, 2012 Posted October 17, 2012 first thoughts...... engine quits on base, you land as usual, on the runway. 1
Thirsty Posted October 17, 2012 Author Posted October 17, 2012 Depends on the wind. I was taught ga and except for a small area on downwind you probably won't make it back to the runway. I also now instruct and I teach my students the same thing. Most of the way around the circuit you'll be looking for a paddock. That is unless you fly a nonstandard circuit and keep in close in which case you might well make it back. 1
flyerme Posted October 17, 2012 Posted October 17, 2012 Great job Thirsty,got my heart beating with that ground run... My wife said "what about the crop?"lol...take it easy mate hope to catch up soon.
Thirsty Posted October 17, 2012 Author Posted October 17, 2012 Hey Tim, yeah I was worried about the crop too cause we had to take our car in there and tow the plane to a better spot but he said barley will bounce back so no harm done. I flew over the area the next day and you'd never know we were in there! 1
Guest Howard Hughes Posted October 17, 2012 Posted October 17, 2012 That is unless you fly a nonstandard circuit and keep in close in which case you might well make it back. Huh? I would purport that a 'standard' circuit does keep you in close, what is this nonsense? Can you explain it a little better, just in case I am misreading you comments! first thoughts...... engine quits on base, you land as usual, on the runway. I agree, trim for the glide and point it straight at the runway!
Guest SAJabiruflyer Posted October 17, 2012 Posted October 17, 2012 Interesting Thirsty. What would you consider "standard" circuit? There seems to be many different opinions of standard. During my Ab Initio training my circuits were probably bigger than SA, perhaps even extending to Victoria, however now my aim is to make them tight enough to make a Scotsman proud, and that I can pull power pretty much anywhere from downwind and still make it to the runway. Certainly on base turn the aim is a glide approach for every landing. Maybe I dont succeed everytime, but I do try. How much experience did the PIC of this incident have Did you find that GA aircraft you flew had.... interesting glide ratios without the benefit of propulsion?
Bandit12 Posted October 17, 2012 Posted October 17, 2012 I don't know about others but I would be hoping that I could get an aircraft down to the runway anywhere from mid downwind if the engine failed....on the Alpha 160, with it's stumpy wings and glide-like-a-brick performance, this means staying fairly tight if possible, but on something like a Warrior there is quite a bit more space. 2
Guest SAJabiruflyer Posted October 17, 2012 Posted October 17, 2012 And thanks for sharing this incident Thirsty - it reinforces my desire to keep my circuits tighter than a Scotsmans purse. And I know what i'll be practicing on Sunday after I take my mum for her first flight with me... yup... engine failures in circuits.
Thirsty Posted October 17, 2012 Author Posted October 17, 2012 I don't agree that the turn onto base should be within glide distance. Let me try and explain how I was taught and how I teach. A circuit has to be standard shape and height otherwise how will we teach it? Take off, climb to 500' turn onto crosswind and climb to 1000', turn downwind. The aircraft performance in this case will dictate the circuit size. If you don't do it this way you are not flying a standard circuit pattern. I'd be very surprised if you lot are turning downwind before reaching 1000' because that is how you would have been taught. In a jab at close to mtow you'll be turning downwind a fair distance from the runway such that gliding back will not likely be possible on the base turn if you keep parallel with the runway. I teach that unless you are in line with the threshold of the runway plus or minus a couple of hundred meters you shouldn't be looking to make the runway if the engine stops. All my flying experience supports this and all I was taught as well so if someone has some other method I'm all ears. The pic in this incident has about 70 hours all up.
Guest Howard Hughes Posted October 17, 2012 Posted October 17, 2012 A circuit has to be standard shape and height otherwise how will we teach it? Take off, climb to 500' turn onto crosswind and climb to 1000', turn downwind. The aircraft performance in this case will dictate the circuit size. If you don't do it this way you are not flying a standard circuit pattern. I'd be very surprised if you lot are turning downwind before reaching 1000' because that is how you would have been taught. I was always taught that downwind is a position relative to the aircraft, not a height, nor 'over old Joes place' or the like. I can remember many a time in the C150 turning downwind before I reached circuit height! Funnily enough I reckon that my downwind is closer these days than what it was when I first started learning (or to quote SA Jab Flyer "tighter than a Scotsmans purse"), quite often I join downwind and find other aircraft 'to the right of me', probably why I try to do a straight in approach wherever possible!
Tomo Posted October 17, 2012 Posted October 17, 2012 I don't want to be annoying, and with all due respect to you, and you no doubt have 10 fold more experience than myself. But personally I don't see the point in a circuit if you can't make the runway whilst in that circuit? I see the problem of turning crosswind and by the time you get to 1000' you're quite a ways from the strip, but wouldn't it make better sense, in a way, to extend the climb out a bit more so you can turn onto downwind a bit closer to the runway? In my opinion the climb out leg is the only time where you shouldn't consider the runway as a viable option. I know this is getting a bit off topic from the original thread, but quite a good subject if you ask me. 10
Thirsty Posted October 17, 2012 Author Posted October 17, 2012 So how do I teach when to turn downwind? There has to be something I can use particularly if a student flies different aircraft types. I teach my students to trim the aircraft straight and level at 1000' and then turn downwind. That's what I was taught in ga and also in ra when I came back to aviation. I see you're an atpl Howard, I'm surprised you weren't taught this way.
Thirsty Posted October 17, 2012 Author Posted October 17, 2012 I think this subject needs its own thread!
Thirsty Posted October 17, 2012 Author Posted October 17, 2012 Tomo, you were taught ga recently, how was it explained to you?
flyerme Posted October 17, 2012 Posted October 17, 2012 when I did my ticket my CFI tought me ONLY to land dead stick tight circuit,however I never got a real chance to do power on landings,I continued dead sticking even in the new light wing,,my first real power on landing was with Thirsty and boy did it help..why? well as I have a second strip with only 250 mtrs of runway powerline one end so one way in and out ,2 50ft trees at thresh hold with a 80 ft gap and if I had do dead stick it I could be in for some fun? I have practiced my power on approaches and this morning was able to land for the first time in the lightwing with 100 meters spare..enjoyed a cuppa and yak with Pa then back home with a big smile..thanks Thirsty for your advice and again for helping me out. note the glide angle is always is different depending on wind direction and strength so with a small strip can be very difficult .take it easy guys thanks for the vid thirsty
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