J160 Engine stopped in circuit

[Guest Howard Hughes]

I see you're an atpl Howard, I'm surprised you weren't taught this way.

I'm surprised you were! I was taught to 'eyeball' the distance from the airfield and turn downwind when appropriate, upwind however was dictated by 500 feet minimum!

Let me ask you this, if you are conducting a low level circuit (due stress of weather, or even just in practice) how do you judge your distance from the field if you never get to 1000 feet?

 

PS: Having an ATPL means the same as having a PPL, or RAA certificate, aka a ticket to further learning!

 

 

[Guest Howard Hughes]

Tomo has it in one!

 

Taken from the CASA booklet "operations at non towered aerodromes".

 

After take-off, during the climbout, makethe turn onto crosswind at a height that

allows you to arrive on downwind at the

 

circuit height. You should not be less than

 

500ft above the aerodrome.

My bolding.

 

 

[Tomo]

Tomo, you were taught ga recently, how was it explained to you?

Thanks for asking! But I guess I wasn't really taught anything exactly in GA but rather just did what I felt was right and it was accepted! I suppose I had the benefit of having flown many types of aircraft previous to getting my GA license which helped hone my feel for the aircraft and what it wants.

 

I will add here however, powered approach and or glide approach won't really effect the distance from downwind in my opinion, that's just dependant on when you turn base and when you remove power etc... it depends on the aircraft as to how I conduct an approach; bigger GA aircraft I will often keep a bit of power on until the threshold just for the sake of the engine and or passenger comfort. When I'm towing in the Pawnee I never do a glide approach as that's very severe for the engine in that case.

 

I see what you mean for teaching an easy way for a student to know when to do it etc.. but I also think that isn't the best way to make a diligent pilot that will modify his circuit to suit the conditions and the aircraft.

 

Don't really know if that answered your question, but I hope it makes sense!

 

 

[i_like_planes_too]

Turn crosswind 500ft, turn downwind on your own judgement of DISTANCE from runway, you can't just go off numbers when every plane is different, jabs are easy with the high wing when teaching. On downwind keep the runway halfway up the wing strut. This will keep you within gliding range. Allow for wind, turn base within gliding range... I wouldn't notice if my engine quit on base ;)

 

 

[Sapphire]

When you are flying the circuit you are slow and low. In my opinion you want to fly the best option for your a/c of a glide approch back to the strip.

 

 

[Guest Howard Hughes]

I've just had another thought, wide circuits also tend to lead to low flat approaches, also not conducive to making the field in the event of an engine failure. It is important to have your descent profile just right. For me about a third of the way from the top of the windscreen (again done by eyeballing) works in most types I have flown, not sure if this transposes to RAA, but I see no reason why it shouldn't. Then if the runway moves up the screen you add power, if it drops you reduce power. If you are on profile, you will make the runway after an engine failure, Papi/VASIS are not set on a 3 degree profile for nothing!

 

 

[Thirsty]

It's standard to turn base when the threshold is 45 degrees over your shoulder, there's no argument there right? You might choose to turn sooner to keep in closer but again, this is not how i was taught. i can understand climbing out more than 500' on upwind to keep it tighter as well but I wasn't taught that way.

 

I initially learnt to fly at Canberra in a c152 and I was taught to turn at 500' onto xwind then turn onto dwind at 1000'. I'd like to hear from others about this to see what the consensus is.

 

Any CFis around care to comment? My CFi taught me the method I've outlined and that's what I now teach.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Good job for getting it down safe thirsty.

 

The argument you guys are in now is not a new one. And its not a GA vs RAA thing either (for once).

 

There are 2 schools of thought regarding CCT shape and height . One school says that you shouldn't turn downwind until at 1000 ft, while the other school says to maintain the correct shape while keeping turns above 500 and keeping the airfield in that 'sweet spot'.

 

Most aircraft these days shouldnt have too much trouble getting to 1000 ft on xwind leg, however, the J160 with its small wings and high wing loading, would require quite a long x wind leg to get you to 1000 ft. This is where the problem lies.

 

If you are flying an aircraft such as the 160 in that manner ( climbing out to 1000 before turning downwind) you can kiss the airfield goodbye. You aren't gunna get it back when the band stops playing. This is why Im in the SHAPE, not height school.

 

The shape is pretty much the same for all lighties, height be dammed, as long as you are turning above 500 ft.

 

We teach that the engine is gunna fail, its just a matter of when...And unfortunalty, in jabs, this is a correct statement. We need to fly as though its about to stop 100% of the time.

 

The other issue is, the standard cct shape. If your tracking out on xwind and putting the acft in a 'non standard' circuit position, then you are increasing the risks for other acft joining the cct, or flying the cct with you. How can someone join downwind leg on a 45 deg angle, if your downwind leg is 3 miles away from the airfield? (im not a fan of the 45 deg join anyway)

 

The 160 is a dog of an aeroplane, on a hot day, low pressure, all up weight, forget about it. I can recall countless times doing ccts and only getting to cct height on mid downwind or later. To perform a cct the other way would require a departure call and a joining base call, you would simply not be in the cct area, and by definition, not be doing ccts.

 

Im not saying my way is the right or only way, just adding my point of view.

 

Cheers

 

 

[Ultralights]

I have seen many types of circuit in my time, some from big wide circuits with no hope of making the strip if the noise stops, to ones shown to me by a high time Mustang owner and A330 captain, wich was, take off, climb to 500, turn 180 deg, climb to circuit height, pull power, glide to base turn, turn 180 deg, fly final, repeat. this circuit was no more than about 100 mtrs from the strip, and flown at Bankstown airport...

 

The military use a similar technique, fly down the strip at circuit height, over the end of the runway, turn to downwind, 180 deg, set up for landing, and a 180 deg turn onto final.. called Initial and pitch.

 

the general rule of thumb i have seen in a majority of circuits is similar to the funnel technique (used by gliders)

 

there will be a point on your wing/strut that will correspond to a point on the ground where you will make it with the engine off in a glide approach, its usually about 2/3 to 1/5 up a lift strut, or about 2/3 out on a low wing aircraft. this point should be on the runway on your downwind leg. turn base when the runway touchdown zone is the wing chord past the trailing edge, again, the point on the strut/wing will line up with the touchdown point while flying and descending on base . turn final when needed. and yes, this will result in a curved base leg as you descend.

 

this works for all types of aircraft, and i have heard rumours that the 737 NG flight manual states a standard circuit is 1 mile from the runway.

 

basically, there is no hard and fast rule on circuit shapes and sizes.

 

i like to use, and teach, the funnel like technique. and factoring wind, using the funnel technique, you will hit your landing point every time..(in a glide). and like to challenge myself by flying the very tight 100 mtr circuit when i can... but as always, Airmanship should also factor in.

 

if you want to know more, its here...

 

http://www.flybetter.com.au/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/Flybetterbooktwo2ndedition.pdf

 

 

[i_like_planes_too]

45% is a good guide in nil wind. Strong head wind = early base.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

I like her thinking...!!!!!

 

 

[turboplanner]

HH - Where were you taught - busy metro or country strip?

 

Busy strip you are usually taught to climb and make downwind turn at circuit height so the stream coming downwind are not up and down as well as in and out of line.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

.. I wouldn't notice if my engine quit on base ;)

You barely noticed when it quit on upwind...:)

 

 

[Guest Howard Hughes]

HH - Where were you taught - busy metro or country strip?Busy strip you are usually taught to climb and make downwind turn at circuit height so the stream coming downwind are not up and down as well as in and out of line.

Both! Started at a country strip then finished up my PPL at a city airport!Whittlesea (there showing my age again), then Essendon and Moorabbin!

 

 

[Thirsty]

This is the problem as I see it. I can't go and teach students indepentaly cause I'm not a CFi and I don't have a flight school! So I teach what I'm told which just happens to be what I was taught years ago.

 

I can see the benefits of the way you teach andy but it must be hard on students initially? At least we have some numbers to work to and not have to worry about judgement early on :).

 

I doubt my CFi will change the way he wants us doing things so I guess we're in the height school of thinking!

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Yea thirsty. I can dig it. Ill bet my hat your CFI is from a Lycoming/ continental background :)...

 

You would be surprised how much easier it makes it. Numbers mean zip to a low time pilot, and trying to fly by them, even less. What they can relate to is what they are seeing out the window. They get used to the runway being in the same place, and the beauty of this technique is, you can (and we do) cover the altimeter and the guy (or girl) just keeps the thing in the right place relative to the runway, and glide appch's are no issue.

 

Numbers are in the cockpit, encourage eyes outside :)

 

(stick to what your chief says, im just giving my 2 cents)

 

 

[i_like_planes]

"I can see the benefits of the way you teach andy but it must be hard on students initially?"

 

Reading the position of a needle on an altimeter... Reading the position of a runway up wing strut... All the same IMO.

 

 

[Thirsty]

And just to add to this where I fly there are paddocks everywhere so there is no real worry about getting it down safely in the event. I flew my normal cct pattern at Wollongong on 16 (I think it was 16, the southerly runway anyway) and yes, if I had an engine failure particularly on long final (over the power station) there would have been trouble :)

 

And Andy, yes he definately is as am I :)

 

 

[rgmwa]

For what it's worth, I was taught the distance from the strip technique, not height, so that you can make a glide approach if you have to (PPL). On a 172 or 152, that means having the strip about 2/3 the way up the strut on a left downwind. I was also told that `a tight circuit is a good circuit'.

 

rgmwa

 

 

[503]

At ypjt it was crosswind 500agl no more than 15 of bank downwind at 45 base at45 also using strut for distance on downwind

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Hey Tim, yeah I was worried about the crop too cause we had to take our car in there and tow the plane to a better spot but he said barley will bounce back so no harm done. I flew over the area the next day and you'd never know we were in there!

Just as well too. We need all the barley we can grow; that's where my beer comes from!

 

 

[flyerme]

reading all these comments I wonder how many have had a real engine failure? not sure about 4 bangers but In a 2 stroke? a glide approach is NEVER really a glide approach.. the prop will still be under sum 2000rpm of power and you can bet your life if its a draggy Ultralight,and the engine really stops you are not goin to make that strip. My bunyip had 3 total engine failures and believe me the glide was different,the first time I was shocked at the down angle increase compared to when I make my glide approach,, also in th supercat when it failed I had done 3 hours with at least 10 landings all glide/dead stick and had a good feel for the glid angle (50knts) when the engine died I set glide for a paddock(engine surging between 0 -3000 rpm.after a few secondes it died, the plane felt like it hit a brick wall.I adjusted the angle to hold 50 and theres was no way I was making that paddock of course now I had lost my 2000rpm glide power plus now had extra drag windmilling the prop...So the point Im making is how can there be a right distance? all aircraft are different and as far as glidding for ????hight at ////distance so you can make the runway in case of engine failure? this would require a higher glide speed in a 2st draggy plane and if its a short runway ?good luck...im glad we got lots of paddocks out here to chose from in any event...take it easy guys.

 

easy way to say what I mean is land a 2 banger on a sealed runway with no brakes and you just keep on rolling, do the same but switch off the engine and youll instantly feel the diff and come to a stop..

 

EDIT : NO dis-respect intended

 

 

[turboplanner]

I've never had an engine stop but remember reading a report by a Jab pilot who said he was surprised at the difference in glide without an engine, and had some difficulty getting into a paddock, finally overrunning and trying to ground loop instead of crashing into the end fence. He managed to get it partially around and hit the fence sideways, I think breaking his arm. he couldn't get out the left side because the door was jambed by barbed wire and fence, and for some reason the right door was also jambed so he broke out through the windscreen.

 

 

[Captain]

reading all these comments I wonder how many have had a real engine failure? not sure about 4 bangers but In a 2 stroke? a glide approach is NEVER really a glide approach.. the prop will still be under sum 2000rpm of power and you can bet your life if its a draggy Ultralight,and the engine really stops you are not goin to make that strip.

In a real engine out, your heartrate goes up in inverse proportion to your engine revs, your grip on the stick tightens accordingly and it is a lot different to doing a conventional glide or an engine-out drill next to an instructor.

 

If it was a genuine thrill-ride at a theme park, you would pay extra for the excitement.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

There's some good discussions in this thread. And its good that thirsty is still around to give us his account.

 

Flyerme. The problem you highlighted is a specific issue relating to very high drag, very low inertia aircraft. As you know these types need to be flown in a specific manner to ensure things are sweet if the music stops. And yes, ive had several engine failures, two on base, and funnily enough, both were on runway 16 at wollongong thirsty ;). One of them I just made the keys (thank god they leave that gap in the runway lights) The second was much more 'cumfy'. Neither were in a Jab, but both were Jabiru engines.

 

Tubz, I think the account you mention, the pilot probably either had a tailwind, or a human factors issue which made him 'think' that it was gliding differently. I can tell you, with no uncertainty, that jabs don't glide much different at all with the fan stopped. The only difference is the pilot flys them differently (generally). Thats why I think controlled fanstops in training are a MUST!!!

 

That being said, ive never done it in a two stroke, I reckon once them things are goin, leave em going...