J160 Engine stopped in circuit

[turboplanner]

That's actually a relief to hear Motz, one less adjustment to make

 

 

[Tomo]

reading all these comments I wonder how many have had a real engine failure? not sure about 4 bangers but In a 2 stroke? a glide approach is NEVER really a glide approach..

Good question... but it does depend a lot on the aircraft and prop design as to what it will glide like engine on or off. It's up to the pilot, but I believe it's a good thing to experience at least once in your own aircraft to know what it is really like, if you own a small ultralight at least anyway. I wouldn't go advocating it in a 206 or something!! But you'll have to find a CFI to do it with you.

 

I've had an engine go quiet on me on take off in a Jab, managed to land without any damage, and have landed a few Drifters engine off... engine failures aren't my main concern, it's having a clear spot to put down that is!

 

I'm all for survival and it's a fact of life if something is going to go wrong, it will go wrong. So being half a step in front of it is a priceless bit of experience. I know people argue the point of experiencing these various things - but that's their skin, not mine!

 

 

[flyerme]

In a real engine out, your heartrate goes up in inverse proportion to your engine revs, your grip on the stick tightens accordingly and it is a lot different to doing a conventional glide or an engine-out drill next to an instructor.If it was a genuine thrill-ride at a theme park, you would pay extra for the excitement.

hmm stick grip tightens,heart rate increase ,,sounds like me when I fly threw my own wake, was that a bump??????????im outa here,there could be another one,,but Dad its 6am and you said theres no wind today?look the socks dead......lmfao,, just some light humour I am accually building a bump tolorence now I have the lightwing...

Not sure about the newer Lighties but my old girl is very slippery and can require a long circuit to slow her down at idle was very shocked at the difference from the old thruster/buyip and supcrap,the light wing just keeps on mushing away and pulling the reins back only makes her more determeined to want to glide to another country. ...glad its got disc brakes....pitty they don,t work in the air~!

 

 

[turboplanner]

Thirsty will show you how to work the Lightwing disc brakes in the air FMe - will make a big difference (can't tell you here, it's a secret)

 

 

[flyerme]

Thirsty will show you how to work the Lightwing disc brakes in the air FMe - will make a big difference (can't tell you here, it's a secret)

 

 

[Thirsty]

Andy just to clarify I wasn't the pilot who put the plane in the paddock,,it was a mate of mine. Another thing I forgot to add was that on the day it happened we had a crosswind on the strip he was using and his base leg would have had a fair headwind component.

 

I was thinking about all this last night and I remember my ga instructer constantly pulling power on me in the circuit and once when about halfway downwind he did it and I was looking for somewhere to go he said "what about the runway?" Bt it definitely wasn't the norm. That stands out because that was the first time he said that so I was definitely trained to not try and get back to the runway.

 

Mind you I did my ppl in the 80's so maybe the hinting has changed somewhat.

 

 

[Guest Howard Hughes]

Andy just to clarify I wasn't the pilot who put the plane in the paddock,,it was a mate of mine. Another thing I forgot to add was that on the day it happened we had a crosswind on the strip he was using and his base leg would have had a fair headwind component.I was thinking about all this last night and I remember my ga instructer constantly pulling power on me in the circuit and once when about halfway downwind he did it and I was looking for somewhere to go he said "what about the runway?" Bt it definitely wasn't the norm. That stands out because that was the first time he said that so I was definitely trained to not try and get back to the runway.

 

Mind you I did my ppl in the 80's so maybe the hinting has changed somewhat.

Hey thirsty, I started flying in the 80's too. You were probably not encouraged to think of the runway as an option so you didn't try the 'low level turn back', but there's a whole nother thread on that subject!!

In the PC-12 I believe the first option once you reach 700 feet (or maybe 800), is to turn back to the field, all the way up to cruise!

 

Motz, I'd rather have an engine fail on base for 16 at YWOL than on upwind anyday! Departed there yesterday, those hills to the South look manacing even with two engines!!!

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Yea, they are interesting alright...Specially when ya do the 34 rnav, they get bloody close....!!!

 

 

[REastwood]

While we are talking circuits, all you people who are NVFR rated, do you change your cct technique at night? I have started doing my night rating and I find it harder with my normally steep approach, a slightly longer/flatter approach (but not too low) makes judging the round out a bit easier. Aircraft is C172.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Whats your instructor say about that?..

 

 

[robinsm]

Was anyone taught that when part of the aircraft (depends on the aircraft) is aligned with the runway on downwind you are at the correct distance (in the Xair it is the cross supportt between the main wing struts). Using this on 500', 1000' and 1500' circuits, it places you in the correct position for height and within gliding range of the runway. Who doesn't practice engine failures in circuit. Get to the correct height on downwind, close your eyes, take a deep breath and pull the power off. Now land the thing properly. Adds to the fun and makes you more familiar with the aircraft. Same as practicing stalls for the hell of it, both power on and power off.

 

 

[REastwood]

He is trying to get me to keep it as close to 3deg glide slope as possible, which is flatter than what I am used to during the day - but I find the 3deg much easier to judge the round out. The question being is should you try to maintain a glide slope which will allow you to make the strip in case of engine failure at night, or maintain a 3deg glide slope which is easier? (Best glide on C172 is around 5-6deg). Just because something is easier doesn't mean it is always the best.

 

 

[octave]

I was taught to judge the downwind leg by using the strut on the aircraft regardless of height. This is also useful in an engine failure situation, select a paddock and imagine that it is a runway and when it is halfway up the strut (with a safety margin) you need to begin turning base (disclaimer - I am not an instructor and this is not meant to be advice).

 

If you only turn downwind at 1000 feet doesn't this mean that in a the trusty Gazelle your turn would be at a different point if you are one up on a cold day than being 2 up on a hot day?

 

Also does this mean that if you have a Gazelle and Pioneer 200 in the circuit together that the Gazelle with its modest climb performance would end up turning downwind further out than the Pioneer?

 

Most of my flying has been from Moruya where when taking off from 05 (now 04) you are climbing out to sea, I was taught to begin an early gentle turn onto xwind in order to avoid flying too far out to sea where an engine failure would be a disaster.

 

I am now flying at another airfield where the circuit is quite prescribed (in terms of turning points) in order to avoid overflying houses.

 

 

[Bandit12]

While we are talking circuits, all you people who are NVFR rated, do you change your cct technique at night? I have started doing my night rating and I find it harder with my normally steep approach, a slightly longer/flatter approach (but not too low) makes judging the round out a bit easier. Aircraft is C172.

I'm not NVFR current and haven't been for quite a long time, but I seem to recall that I definately flew a slightly longer downwind leg for a flatter approach at night.

 

 

[Ballpoint 246niner]

thirsty- barley and hops back to airfield..... Sounds like a great recipe for a beer! Well done. Worlds best motor glider.... Except you don't get to decide when to turn it off...

 

 

[boingk]

Depends on the wind. I was taught ga and except for a small area on downwind you probably won't make it back to the runway. I also now instruct and I teach my students the same thing. Most of the way around the circuit you'll be looking for a paddock. That is unless you fly a nonstandard circuit and keep in close in which case you might well make it back.

Taking it right back to this post.

 

I was also taught GA and was told the sensible line of "Keep the strip under your wing and you'll always make it back," with proper idle-power demonstrations to the satisfaction of my instructors before my first solo.

 

If you don't stick to this simple rule you are either flying a brick or asking for trouble. One day that field won't be there when you need it and we'll be looking at another fatality printed in the back of an RAA magazine.

 

- boingk

 

 

[Jabiru Phil]

Taking it right back to this post.I was also taught GA and was told the sensible line of "Keep the strip under your wing and you'll always make it back," with proper idle-power demonstrations to the satisfaction of my instructors before my first solo.

 

If you don't stick to this simple rule you are either flying a brick or asking for trouble. One day that field won't be there when you need it and we'll be looking at another fatality printed in the back of an RAA magazine.

 

- boingk

Some previous posts referred to HIGH wing aircraft re position of strut to strip. Obviously your experience is with LOW wing, just to clarify.

This is a very good post and great input from instructors. Thanks for starting Thirsty.

 

 

[metalman]

Initial training has a habit of getting stuck in your mind, I started in C172 and we always flew downwind with the runway through the lift strut, and I could always make it back to the runway if I had to do an engine out, when I moved into a tecnam golf the circuit was tighter again with an engine idle glide from base, so now when I get in either plane I seem to revert to my initial training.

 

The big change has been in the other aircraft I fly now , in the Eurofox I tend to fly a real close circuit ,a high final and side slip the excess height away , apart from being good fun, and keeping fresh with side slips, it means I will always make the strip regardless of where I am in the circuit, the complete opposite is true for the Tigermoth , if the fan stops unless the runway is nearly underneath me I doubt I'll get in on it , I think now I tend to fly a circuit that suits the aircraft rather than having a set regime ,they all have there little differences , but ,in saying that I also had to learn a 'standard' circuit in the beginning so I would have a foundation to learn from.

 

I have changed my methods as I have gain experience but as soon as I get into a 172 I seem to go on AP and fly it the same as I was first taught,

 

Oh yeh ,and I had a CFI switch off the CDI's in another tecnam once and doing a circuit with the blade sitting still is definantly a diffrent thing,,,,probably more in your mind than an aerodynamic issue , but it certainly added a realistic feel to the exercise

 

Met

 

 

[Thirsty]

Thing is we don't only fly circuits. When we go away from the cct area we are taught to always have somewhere to go. You can do the same thing in the cct if you fly somewhere that isn't builtup like I do. I'm not going to die if the engine stops and I can't make the runway! Just as I'm not going to die if the engine stops anywhere else because I'm always looking for somewhere to go.

 

Btw I fly all sorts of cct shapes depending on the aircraft and my mood I'm more talking about teaching students. In the aircraft we fly we turn downwind at 1000' and that puts the runway at about two thirds the way up the strut thus we are about the right distance out and this is pointed out to students.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Thirsty these threads are always a difficult method of discussing techniques because firstly it is sometimes difficult to grasp what the person is saying, but secondly there's a vast difference between a strip in the middle of paddocks with maybe one or two other aircraft per day, and metropolitan CTA where there's a mean circuit speed needed for separation, which means a similar circuit profile and you can't crowd it and you can't do 2 mile circuits or you'll disrupt traffic.

 

I was about to say the same as you - are we just going to fly circuits and never leave the area, but Metalman's concept is very appealing when your landing paddock is going to be a decision between a factory roof (where there have been survivals), a busy street, or if you're lucky a golf course.

 

As much as I like the tight circuit though, I think you have to wait for 1000' before turning downwind to avoid a potential collision from another aircraft coming downwind at the correct height. (and the same principle for the other two aircraft types/circuit heights). I have no problems getting my knuckles banged for a 25 foot height deviation.

 

 

[octave]

In the aircraft we fly we turn downwind at 1000' and that puts the runway at about two thirds the way up the strut thus we are about the right distance out and this is pointed out to students.

That's a good point Thirsty, I think it's a performance thing. I remember during my training doing circuits on 18 Moruya, this runway is parallel to the beach, if you attempt to climb to 1000 ft two up in the Gazelle you end up further out to sea than is wise. I remember one instructor saying "don't go further out to sea than you are prepared to swim:blink:" and another instructor saying "can we please turn downwind before we get to New Zealand:freaked:"

 

 

[Thirsty]

Yes I agree the cct will depend a lot on the local foibles of where you are flying. If I were teaching in Wollongong for instance there's no way I'd do wide ccts all day long!

 

Another point that no-one seems to have touched on - we talk about turning base early enough that you could glide to the runway but what about the turn onto downwind? If the engine stopped just as you turned downwind you'd be looking at a downwind landing if you were to go back to the strip you just took off on. Is that preferable to a landing in a paddock into the wind? (Taking into account a builtup area then yes it would be probably but in the event there are other places to go what would you do?)

 

 

[Tomo]

In the aircraft we fly we turn downwind at 1000' and that puts the runway at about two thirds the way up the strut thus we are about the right distance out and this is pointed out to students.

That sounds about right, I would have thought you could make the runway with that easily. I've put a J230 on the strip from a simulated engine off low level circuit (500ft) late downwind, that a CFI did to me one day on a check flight. Wasn't a lot of room to play with though!!

 

 

[68volksy]

Personally I find the "you must make it back to the strip" mentality very frightening in most situations. There are just too many variables to consider. I think it better to train to be able to select the best field you can at any given time. If you're far enough along downwind then it might be the runway you took off from. Sometimes it's the cross-strip. The data says that the vast majority of engine failures in the circuit occur on take-off or initial climb-out and if you try to make the strip in these instances you're generally committing suicide. Engine failures half way along downwind seem to be very heavily practiced and but if you look at the data all that training is pretty much redundant. PFL's on downwind are more about practicing glide approaches rather than practicing for engine failures in the circuit.

 

 

[Thirsty]

Pretty much what I teach volksy. Having said that my one and only engine failure so far happened opposite the threshold 3/4 of the way downwind and I'd just spent the last hour practicing engine outs with a student! Dropped a valve and the engine went bang, bang, bang before I shut it down. Landed back on the departure runway on a nil wind day and even managed to roll off the rway onto the taxiway. Sometimes things just work out in a bad situation.