J160 Engine stopped in circuit

[boingk]

You are definitely best to be trained to look for the most appropriate field at any given time.

 

I remember my GFPT and the takeoff engine-out test. I was at 500ft and dropping, with two hills covered with trees dead ahead. I went through the motions of full flap to bring her up short dead ahead in the area that was clear - the instructor approved. At low level (under 1000ft or so) you've only got about a 45 degree arc dead ahead to play with.

 

I would definitely say that making the strip with a failure on downwind is doable, though, if you are at circuit height and... of course... depending on the aircraft and conditions. I've done it a stack in a venerable (and overweight) C150 Aerobat and also a Skyfox Gazelle. Both seemed fine through mid downwind with an engine out to land back on the takeoff runway with a sweeping, smooth turn through 'base' and 'final'. Had to slip the bejeezus out of the Gazelle, actually, was a hoot!

 

Jabiru Phil - I was actually trained in the aircraft mentioned above (C150, Gazelle) and only recently bought my own low wing. The strut reference is most appropriate to high wingers, of course, thanks for the correction.

 

EDIT: Surely everyone knows this saying: "Out of altitude, out of airspeed, out of options."

 

 

[Guest Howard Hughes]

Personally I find the "you must make it back to the strip" mentality very frightening in most situations. There are just too many variables to consider.

Lets not confuse 'must make it back to the strip' with 'considering all options'! I have read every post in this thread and no where have I seen anyone advocating 'you must make it back to the strip'. What we are saying is that it makes sense to use the strip if (and a BIG IF), you are in a position to do so, however being too wide on downwind will not afford you this luxury!

 

 

[Guest SAJabiruflyer]

Lets not confuse 'must make it back to the strip' with 'considering all options'! I have read every post in this thread and no where have I seen anyone advocating 'you must make it back to the strip'. What we are saying is that it makes sense to use the strip if (and a BIG IF), you are in a position to do so, however being too wide on downwind will not afford you this luxury!

Speaking of considering all options.. I once was doing short field practice on the short 27/09 runway where I fly, which is a grass strip. The main 01/19 is bitumen. After a missed approach to 09, I was at about 700ft and the instructor pulled the throttle. My instructor expected (I think) me to nose down maintain best glide and land straight ahead. Instead, immediately I put the nose down, assessed the situation, turned to the left gently, and set myself up for a landing on 19. I had to throw on full flap and side slip in order to make it in without floating down the runway. I made it! I knew the conditions on the day meant 19 was the runway in use, and I analyzed my actions afterwards, with the input of my instructor (ex GA instructor) and we both agreed that I'd simply flown to the situation as presented.

 

Does that mean i'd turn back to the runway during a real EF - no. But, in this case, I had the height, I had the airspeed and of course there was no low-altitude low-intertia turnback required and I made the best choice. I try to fly as safe as I can, everytime.

 

 

[Thirsty]

Sounds like you did really well and thought it out in those few seconds, well done I would have said!

 

 

[Guest SAJabiruflyer]

Sounds like you did really well and thought it out in those few seconds, well done I would have said!

I do try. However I dont always get it right and i'm the first to admit it. My Ab Initio Instructor's comments after I passed my flight test with the CFI.. "Despite your best efforts we both survived"

 

 

[Guest SAJabiruflyer]

I do try. However I dont always get it right and i'm the first to admit it. My Ab Initio Instructor's comments after I passed my flight test with the CFI.. "Despite your best efforts we both survived"

.. and it turns out 500+ hours on FS95, FS98, FS2000, FSX dont a great a pilot make

 

 

[Thirsty]

I'm guessing your instructor on the day said well done though? And if your instructor/CFi was joking with you then all was well :)

 

 

[Guest SAJabiruflyer]

I'm guessing your instructor on the day said well done though? And if your instructor/CFi was joking with you then all was well :)

Yes he congratulated me on my decision. And the other instructor has a very good sense of humor and we remain friends to this day, despite heading towards the fuel bowser at YMBD at a great rate of knots after running off the runway, causing him to say gently "my aircraft" (we later found a flat tire/tyre/rubber round thing left main)

 

 

[Thirsty]

It's funny isn't it, I don't dislike the students thAt try to kill me! Well not all of them anyway :)

 

 

[facthunter]

And on the other side of the coin, I must have learn't to fly in a fashon, DESPITE some of the instructors I had. They all contribute though, because I always tried to not repeat some of their bad aspects.

 

Instructors need to remember that they were students once, and have unlimited patience, never get annoyed and be eternally vigilant for the most unexpected ridiculous crazy action possible from anybody connected with aviation. Pretty easy really. Nev

 

 

[fatmal]

reading all these comments I wonder how many have had a real engine failure?

Once for me - light variable wind, low idle speed set (I knew this, so it's entirely my fault), a little high and slow on late finals, pull the throttle waaaaay back, and MAN did it get quiet! 1,300 metres of runway in front of me, some height to increase my speed (but not enough to swap hands on the stick for a key restart), so I was halfway through thinking "Oh SH*T, what do I do now!", and my instructors voice ran through my head (like Obe Wan Kinobi) "Fly the aeroplane" - so that's what I did. Thanks Terry!

 

I didn't have the presence of mind to determine if the glide was any different, given that I only had one (VERY achievable) option, and I knew I needed to get the nose DOWN (Thanks again Terry!).

 

If you've ever been in what is normally a high-noise environment (computer room, manufacturing facility etc.) when it is shut down, you'll know that the quiet is a VERY SPECIAL kind of quiet!

 

Mal

 

 

[Dieselten]

(Drags soap-box onto stage.)

 

The best place to have an emergency landing from anywhere in the circuit is back on the airfield itself. It is a known surface, it has almost no danger of what the military euphemistically call "collateral damage" and, if you're at an airport of any consequence, the emergency services - should they be required - know exactly where to go to.

 

I see many GA aircraft flying circuits so wide they will have their emergency-landing in a backyard swimming-pool, a car-park, a playing-field or a nearby lake; they are so far away from the airfield there is no way known to man they can get back if the engine quits. That's fine if you're training to fly a 737...but the vast majority of us aren't, so why fly these huge circuits in the first place? Noise-abatement?

 

I'm all for "fly neighbourly" and I'm acutely conscious of my responsibilties and options when operating in the vicinity of houses or built-up areas. I do my damnedest to avoid annoying people on the ground - but there are a few who go out of their way to be annoyed. These "squeaky-wheels" receive far too much "lubrication" from the powers that be under existing legislation. In the long-term, the best option for all would be for the squeaky-wheels to be ignored. Deprive them of the oxygen of publicity they so clearly crave. They are a minority and deserve little, if any sympathy. That can be found in the dictionary - and we all know between which two words it lies!

 

The P.I.C of any aircraft should put the safety of their crew or passengers, and the aircraft, ahead of the convenience of those earthbound individuals who deliberately (or mischieviously) choose to complain about the activities of others because their own lives are so bereft of achievement or joy. If you go out of your way to appease these malcontents, by flying an excessively wide circuit or whatever other action you undertake which compromises your safety in the event of an engine-out or other abnormal, be assured they will not turn up to your funeral - should one be necessary.

 

(Those who wish to throw fruit or vegetables, please ensure they are edible! I have been on short-commons lately so your timely gifts of aerially-delivered food is appreciated.)

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Too right Ned.

 

 

[facthunter]

I have always tended to do circuits that are a tad small and a bit high (on final) relying on a sideslip or other tactic if I end up higher than comfortable. This is probably because of my scottish ancestry and a tendency to not waste money. If you are flying a wide circuiit you waste time and fuel as well as maybe having to land on someone's roof, in a single engined plane.. It is all very well to consider gliding to the aerodrome as an option as long as you don't become obsessed with going there to the exclusion of anywhere else. Sometimes despite your best efforts you won't make it. It may be due to the fact that you have just lifted off , or have to extend downwind to follow a slower aircraft. If you are flying anywhere "think aeroplane' and manage your circumstances as best you can and optimise your chances of survival. There is a minimum of time during any flight where you are going somewhere when you can actually glide to an aerodrome. Circuits are a sort of special case, where you can optimize the posibility. Usually the results of "not quite making it ", are not good, especially if you don't maintain full control of the aircraft. Nev

 

 

[Guest nunans]

Instructors need to remember that they were students once, and have unlimited patience, never get annoyed and be eternally vigilant for the most unexpected ridiculous crazy action possible from anybody connected with aviation. Pretty easy really. Nev

I flew today in a J160 with a GA instructor who was begrudgingly flying with me as part of my RA instructor training, anyway after a far less than perfect landing by me who by the way was brand new to the right seat and only have about 2hrs on type in the past nine months. He comes out with "That was Sh!t, if you can't land an aeroplane you shouldn't be doing this course" To which I humbly replied that even crappy pilots can put thier name down to do the training and that my money was as good as the next persons.

 

I followed up with another poor performance on the next landing as I was now doubting myself very much and wondering if I was wasting my time and money continuing.

 

Some instructors really know how to discourage an otherwise keen and exited student that's for sure.....

 

I have no doubt that he is very qualified and very capable pilot but it did alert me to how easily a student may be discouraged.

 

 

[Ultralights]

i would recommend finding a new instructor in the case above...

 

 

[motzartmerv]

I flew today in a J160 with a GA instructor who was begrudgingly flying with me as part of my RA instructor training, anyway after a far less than perfect landing by me who by the way was brand new to the right seat and only have about 2hrs on type in the past nine months. He comes out with "That was Sh!t, if you can't land an aeroplane you shouldn't be doing this course" To which I humbly replied that even crappy pilots can put thier name down to do the training and the people running the course will happily take anybodies money.I followed up with another poor performance on the next landing as I was now doubting myself very much and wondering if I was wasting my time and money continuing.

 

Some instructors really know how to discourage an otherwise keen and exited student that's for sure.....

First of all, dont worry about cranky instructors. If he's GA he probably cant land the thing any better..

 

Second, remember how you felt. When you finish the course and start instructing, use him as an example of how NOT to do it..And let him know that you intend to do so...;)

 

 

[Bandit12]

He comes out with "That was Sh!t, if you can't land an aeroplane you shouldn't be doing this course" To which I humbly replied that even crappy pilots can put thier name down to do the training and that my money was as good as the next persons...................it did alert me to how easily a student may be discouraged.

I've said it before, I will say it again. This sort of negative rubbish is just what doesn't work. It's not like you didn't realise that you had stuffed it up, and instead of making it a learning experience, he managed to make you get all defensive and that certainly didn't help you refocus, work out what went wrong and try to fix it for next time.

 

The old saying of "those who can't do, teach" has never been more wrong. Some people should stick to doing and leave the teaching for those who are a little more encouraging and passionate about seeing others succeed.

 

 

[Ballpoint 246niner]

So how do I teach when to turn downwind? There has to be something I can use particularly if a student flies different aircraft types.May I suggest briefing and demonstrating a 45 degree intersect from the upwind threshold,whilst on x-wind. Have the student look back and develop good angular judgement, this is the geometrical basis of a "standard circuit" and also adheres to a safe glide angle distance formula, often taught in ultralights( and definately gliders), the good part of this is it also works at the downwind/base intersection.

 

The point about being at circuit height( eg 1000ft AGL on the downwind leg is valid but has been well explained and backed up by Tomo and Howard.

 

IMHO a circuit should achieve the following outcomes:-

 

• Keep the aircraft in an orderley consistant format for a succesful landing approach.
   
   
  
• Keep the aircraft within a safe "reasonable" glide of the landing area.
   
   
  
• Provide suitable separation and avoidence for aircraft joining circuit as per the AIP's.
   
   
  
• Keep the landing point visual from all points in a joined circuit( this obviously excludes the upwind leg)
   
   
  
• Allow time for the aircraft to be reconfigured from a cruise/descent phase to a landing configuration based on type and performance. ( The allowance for this in the CAAP has been made with regards to normal downwind speed ie sub 60kts, 60-120kts and > than 120kts).
   
   
  

 

 

If I see a student disappear off on x-wind or drifting away on downwind, I pull the power- then ask how are they going to get back.... most of them only get too wide the once! Remember flight over closely settled areas should only be conducted 1000"AGL and also within" glide of a suitable landing area". Most airfields I know within the extended metropolitan and suburban areas are all "closely settled"- so what options are you leaving yourself if you get too far from the airfield?

[turboplanner]

BP, why wouldn't the turn on to downwind be when the aircraft is about to reach 1000' (for a 1000' circuit)

 

That's where you are supposed to be on downwind, and that reduces the intense portion of visual checking load by one dimension

 

The aircraft's performance then sets the point of turn and you can still address this to a degree by your crosswind turn height.

 

 

[Ballpoint 246niner]

BP, why wouldn't the turn on to downwind be when the aircraft is about to reach 1000' (for a 1000' circuit)That's where you are supposed to be on downwind, and that reduces the intense portion of visual checking load by one dimension

The aircraft's performance then sets the point of turn and you can still address this to a degree by your crosswind turn height.

Turbo that may be a legal consideration, and to a degree for conformity, but it shouldn't be the over riding determination. Some aircraft with a climb performance of 2-300 fpm in a tailwind influenced x- wind leg may end up 2-3 miles from the runway by the time they reach 1000 ft AGL, others and depending on conditions may reach it on upwind leg(as we were doing today) before turning x-wind at all, does this mean we should do a straight 180degree and fly virtually over the runway on downwind? Of course not!

 

The turn decision, and the lookout to reference it are important elements of situational awareness, I teach it as part of the pre - turn assessment and lookout sequence. Good lookout represents good airmanship and referencing that look to your position is part of the process as well as for collision avoidance. Great to entertain some dialogue in the hope those watching may consider the circuit in this detail.

 

Cheers!

 

 

[Gentreau]

It's interesting to hear all these comments about flying the pattern when in fact circuits are an artificial training procedure which tries to combine two phases of flight into one. In reality a circuit is a departure followed immediately by an arrival, minus the joining calls and procedure.

 

Departure is all about getting as much air beneath you as possible and safely leaving the busy traffic zone. Arrival is about reducing your safety margin (height) in such a way as to give the best chance of making a landing under any forseeable circumstances. The exact height and distance for the arrival procedure, as stated by others, really is dependant upon local conditions.

 

So I would ask the instructors here: In order to properly teach a student pilot the correct arrival techniques, isn't it better to position the aircraft as if it had just joined on downwind, wherever that happens to be on your airfield ?

 

If that means extending a bit upwind and finishing the climb downwind to arrive at start of downwind at cct height and distance, then so be it......

 

.

 

 

[planet47]

Just a small question - I seek opinion as to how one should conduct 500ft circuits. I think gliding distance of the runway is always good especially if the surrounding landscape is made up to trees, a river and a few paddocks with power lines.

 

 

[facthunter]

Low circuits make gliding distance a fair bit less achievable, especially with draggy planes. If you are flying over the sort of place you describe, I would consider flying somewhere else. It's a question of risk management. You assess it and adjust your technique . Nev

 

 

[Gentreau]

Just a small question - I seek opinion as to how one should conduct 500ft circuits. I think gliding distance of the runway is always good especially if the surrounding landscape is made up to trees, a river and a few paddocks with power lines.

Is there some specific reason that the circuits have to be at 500ft ?

 

If not then I would design them to be within gliding distance of the strip for the largest amount of time possible.

 

.