Problems with landing

[petetheprinta]

Brief history. Flying for 2 years now primarily jabs (160,170,230) and fk9 . Fair weather flyer only and basically putter around. Approx 150hrs. Successfully completed BFR 5 weeks ago in 170. 3 weeks ago went up in adverse conditions (for me) gusty and swinging winds aprox 15-20 knots, very bumpy. Did 3 circuits and extremely happy with flight "greased" all landings.

 

2 weeks ago circuits again, calm conditions struggled with all 6 landings. Floating, go arounds due to bouncing, just terrible. By the way, Usually fly same aircraft all the time.

 

Wednesday just gone calm conditions Brand new 170d long nose. 1st landing severe bounce go around, 2nd same thing, 3rd same thing, now starting to worry, radio the CFI, talks to me whilst circling airfield, check approach speed 60 knots, flare, hold off, 4th severe bounce, go around, now getting very nervous. Talk to CFI again, try again 5th, same problem now panic has set in, finally get down on 6th attempt after minor bounce. (All touch downs on main wheels, no nose wheel first)

 

Talk to CFI who feels just not holding the nose up enough. Flare was ok at good height. Told me I should go up again but I chickened out.

 

I have since struggled to work out what went wrong. Is it the longer nose on Jab? Maybe doing something to my perceived view of attitude on landing. (Doesn't explain week befores effort) I have booked in again next Wednesday with instructor to try and sort it out. In the meantime ANY suggestions gratefully accepted...

 

 

[rankamateur]

Visit the optomitrist maybe?

 

 

[turboplanner]

Booking on Wednesday is a sound decision.

 

The J170 can be very sensitive to technique, with several different aspects involved, so not a good forum guessing game.

 

 

[Thirsty]

The one thing I see in new students (not saying you fit that category just saying) who can't land well is that they flare OK then they just sit there with the stick in one place waiting for the landing. If the stick isn't constantly moving around, even just a little, then the landing won't be nice in all likelihood. It's hard to work out how we can land one day and not the next. Must be a mindset or frame of mind thing I 'spose.

 

 

[facthunter]

Some people regress for a short period. When you lose confidence it is dramatic and you get very concerned that you may have "lost it". I suggest that you try to relax, do a bit of work with your instructor with holding the plane off a bit longer, and get your speed control over the fence close to optimal. You will have to "put in the work" to get it right again and respond to what the plane is doing. Don't tolerate bouncing in a Jab and anytime the nosewheel touches first, you have a serious problem potentially. Nev

 

 

[fly_tornado]

have you got the plane trimmed right?

 

 

[Sapphire]

now getting very nervous

 

Keep working on it till you dont get "nervous"

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

I find myself straying at times...I am only a low time pilot but fly my own aircraft. What stuffs me up is not looking at the far end of the runway when rounding out. If you dont you end up flairing too high so hence the bouncing. You need to make a decision to look at that very far end of the runway then I find all my landings are very good but if I am looking over the nose of the aircraft and not far in front then I will bounce it almost every time. I dont think makes any difference on what aircraft you are flying it is the same for all of them

 

Mark

 

 

[peter]

I really like your post Thirsty, every time I land I get to the hold off phase and tell myself, fly it, fly it, fly it otherwise I just tend to freeze and hold the stick still thinking I am in the right place so leave it alone but of course airspeed is bleeding off and the stick needs to keep coming back to keep it in the same place. I think flying taildraggers helped me a lot because you must keep active throughout the whole landing process, sitting still just doesn't work at all!!!

 

Peter

 

 

[Thirsty]

Yeah with taildraggers (and the Jab LSA55's I fly) you need to keep your feet moving too - like peddling a bike :)

 

Also Kyle hit the nail on the head re: where to look - make a conscious decision to look at least halfway down the strip not just in front of you.

 

One last thing - try flying along the runway just off the ground after the flare. Add a tiny little bit of power after the flare and try not to land, you'll probably find you'll do greasers every time doing that.

 

 

[Herm]

I am with Mark. I can remember my instructor saying HEAD UP at the flair. May not be your problem, but it is one that seems to work for me. Don't look over the nose when at flair. Once you begin to round out look forward down the strip... Oh and remember you are a better pilot than you think you are, and you can do it. The brain will fool you and is powerful. Keep calm! Oh I am also a fair weather pilot. See you at Gawler

 

Mardy

 

 

[rankamateur]

Yeah with taildraggers (and the Jab LSA55's I fly) you need to keep your feet moving too - like peddling a bike :)Also Kyle hit the nail on the head re: where to look - make a conscious decision to look at least halfway down the strip not just in front of you.

 

One last thing - try flying along the runway just off the ground after the flare. Add a tiny little bit of power after the flare and try not to land, you'll probably find you'll do greasers every time doing that.

Is this called adding power to arrest the sink as the angle of attack increases in the flare? Exactly the opposite of the much promoted glide approach on every approach like your life depends on it, is the enforced glide approach causing the rough landings which only get worse as the confidence errodes?

 

 

[Thirsty]

No I'm saying add a little power after you've already flared (this implies you've already reached the runway) and just concentrate on flying just a few inches above the strip. You'll almost always kiss very gently if you forget about landing :).

 

 

[Guest Howard Hughes]

I have found in my almost thirty years of flying, that quite regularly I go through a patch where things just don't seem to work. For me it's about a six monthly cycle, the trick is to get back to basics.

 

From a distance and without knowing more, I suspect you're trying the 'curvature of the Earth' type of landing, that is too much power, flat deck angle and waiting for the earth to rise up to the aircraft, this is a problem I see often, even in pilots with 10's of thousands of hours.

 

To counter this I would suggest four things:

 

- work on your approach angle, not to steep, but importantly not too shallow, if this is right then you should see a large improvement

 

- look out the front (as others have said), it's simple, easy to forget, but very important

 

- make sure you are working the rudder during the flare (yes even in a nose dragger), you will find if you have your rudder under control, your elevator control will take care of itself

 

- finally make sure the power is all the way off!

 

Happy flying and don't worry I'm sure things will look up soon, they always do!

 

PS: Chasing the elusive 'greaser' is often where these problems start, I'd much rather see a landing with power off, nose hi attitude, positive contact with the ground and use of 'aerodynamic braking', to me that is the perfect landing. Chasing a greaser just uses up valuable runway, for the most part the only thing that saves many people, is the fact that the majority of runways in Oz are two to three times longer than they need to be!

 

 

[Sapphire]

is the fact that the majority of runways in Oz are two to three times longer than they need to be!

 

 

 

 

Not if you need 15000 feet [weedhopper?] Might do in 15000mm with a good headwind

 

 

[motzartmerv]

It's all about the picture. What your seein in the windscreen. Your brain relys on visual cues and input that your probably not even aware of. Whe you jump in a new type, even the same type but slightly different make or model, your cues are all going to be stuffed up due to the picture in the windscreen being different.

 

Theres a few tricks to minimizing the severity I the problem.

 

Spend 1/2 an hour sitting in the aeroplane in the ground. Looking out the front an also getting g some muscle memory happenin with the different cockpit layout.

 

Burn Into your brain what the picture looks like with all 3 wheels on the ground.

 

Get ya mate to tip the aeroplane back unto the flair attitude, take notice of where the

 

Nose is in relation to the horizon. Burn that picture in aswel.

 

Or......

 

Get ya chief to ride alOng. Surprised he didnt;).

 

Cockpits are no place to be proud, if you are going to try a new aeroplane, get ya CFI or instructor to tag along. Most places require it anyway for Insurence purposes. I've never flown two jabs that fly the same...

 

Enjoy

 

;)

 

 

[Sapphire]

They tell you to round out on attitude [not with attitude] For me that is not the only clue. I imagine that my feet are sticking out of the bottom of the a/c and I am going to land on my feet. Thats where I round out and works on the small ultralights-oviously not in an A380. For a Jabiru type a/c round out a bit higher

 

 

[cscotthendry]

I find myself straying at times...I am only a low time pilot but fly my own aircraft. What stuffs me up is not looking at the far end of the runway when rounding out. If you dont you end up flairing too high so hence the bouncing. You need to make a decision to look at that very far end of the runway then I find all my landings are very good but if I am looking over the nose of the aircraft and not far in front then I will bounce it almost every time. I dont think makes any difference on what aircraft you are flying it is the same for all of them

Mark

Absolutely +1 for what Mark said. I went through a patch like this and it turned out to be exactly that, not looking down the end of the runway, but looking down over the nose. IMHO, we get height clues from our peripheral vision when we look at the end of the runway. I think these cluse must get swamped when we look down at the ground rushing up. Also I think we seeperspective lines of the sides of the runway better when we're looking forward. A good way to demonstrate this is to stand in a hallway, look at the other end of the hallway but let your peripheral vision pick up the skirting board. Now squat down slowly and notice what hapeens to the lines formed by the skirting boards as you get lower and lower.

 

 

[petetheprinta]

Many thanks to you all for the good advice. I certainly appreciate the help. There are several things I will concentrate on particularly speed, attitude in the flare and making sure I am looking down the runway not in front of the nose. I will also go up with an instructor who I am sure will beat me as required. Pete.

 

 

[Sapphire]

If you dont have an instructor, self flagellation works just as well.

 

 

[Ultralights]

where are you looking during the flare and landing? just past the nose? or right to the end of the runway? the thurther you look down the runway, to past the fence at the end, will help you judge the touchdown much easier, and result in less over correcting.

 

 

[petetheprinta]

I Always look down the runway. That's why I don't understand what's happening. I have almost convinced myself it is the aircraft. I always have a picture in my mind of attitude of nose in flare in relation to the end of runway when landing. IMHO The longer nose on the new jab means that although my picture is the same, in fact the aircraft is in a "flatter" attitude in the flare. Hence I need to pull back more in flare so that the longer nose is above my previous picture sight in relation to the end of runway. Make sense or am I clutching at straws??

 

 

[Sapphire]

Doesnt matter if you round out a bit high. As you are holding off, let the a/c SLOWLY sink. If you do touch runway early you will get no or small bounce. I round out high with a/c I have not flown before. Have a bit of extra speed up so you have time to do that fiddle while you are holding off. Otherwise the a/c will stall while you are still a bit high. Seen a Cessna round out and stall from 20 feet. The wheels spread out like it was doing the splits.

 

 

[facthunter]

Height awareness at the flare is judged by different things. Sometimes it is the texture of the grass or the paintlines down the edges "looking right". If you have an all over field it doesn't work. You will eventually have to be versatile. If you have light rain on the windshield you may not be able to see out the front. Same if the engine has been damaged and oil has got all over it. Lindbergs Ryan had no forward vision at all and plenty of long nosed planes and C-180's etc have little forward vision when you start slowing it up and lowering the tail. Night landings are another thing again.

 

Somehow or other you need a mental image of the surface of the runway and you have to manoeuver the plane to contact it in a controlled way and at a reduced sink rate. I have over the years heard many theories how to do "greasy" landings. I'm pretty skeptical of most of them. If the plane is a bit slow or too fast over the fence then a correction/variation is needed so every landing will be different. If you flare it too much and too high you will drop it in, ( stall) and if you flare too late you hit hard and may do a large bounce. I would be very hesitant to say much on a forum except general things like put some work into your landings if you want them to be controlled.( what other kind are there?) Flukes? do it by numbers.? Evaluate your own faults, It works over time, as your experience builds. If it is still not working for you try a relaxed instructor and do some low level circuits so you get more in. Don't do this if your circuit work is not sound. They say a bad landing is the result of a bad circuit. Perhaps, but you should be able to recover from gusts etc which muck up your circuit or approach so it is all part of the scene. Nev

 

 

[turboplanner]

I agree with all of that Nev, its something best not put into words.