Lismore accident

[Ballpoint 246niner]

I taked to an instructor once who did check flights etc for commercial pilots in various a/c. I asked him how he kept up with all the different a/c he flew. Basically he said he didn't. He relied on the student a lot and between them they "worked it out". I guess when you are instructing experienced pilots you have less of a workload.

Sapphire, in fact I find the opposite. The ab initio expects prompting and critique and you to" be there just in case". The more experienced pilot wants to "show you" that they know what they are doing. This narrows the space for the instructor to take an active involvement and also the space to take over when necessary. I run a different brief for both types and asssess closely as we go through the exercise.

 

 

[ahlocks]

Nothing to do with why the Lismore prang might have happened however after reading your message Ballpoint and recalling my BFR a few months ago, I can certainly understand how an instructor may not have time to intervene if things ever go pear shaped during a conversion or BFR.

 

My CFI always rested his feet on the pedals while we were training. When I did my BFR I mentioned that I found the feel of the rudder with his feet on the pedals distracting as the aeroplane felt 'wrong'. He accommodated by removing his feet and upon reflection, his safety net if I'd decided to try something on.

 

 

[David Isaac]

..... if I'd decided to try something on.

Hmmm, now just what might that have been Locksie sweety ... LOL

 

 

[ahlocks]

Never you mind DbI...

 

('tis best we don't misbehave in a serious topic or we'll both get zotted )

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

It's always very confusing when there is a failure with two capable pilots on board. However it does happen more often than it should, which may highlight the 'who's actually flying the aircraft ?' scenero, and the dangers therein.

 

Pilot in command, or 'flying pilot' must be established at all times, and this is even more important should things go sour with an engine failure etc. at the lower altitudes, or even with re-establishing the correct airspeed profile, should the airspeed be allowed to decay at critical times during the approach or departure.

 

Compounding this problem is the known danger area in operating a new or unfamiliar aircraft type. This is a well recognized, and known danger area even for the experienced pilot.............................................................Maj...

 

 

[flyvulcan]

It's always very confusing when there is a failure with two capable pilots on board. However it does happen more often than it should, which may highlight the 'who's actually flying the aircraft ?' scenero, and the dangers therein.Pilot in command, or 'flying pilot' must be established at all times, and this is even more important should things go sour with an engine failure etc. at the lower altitudes, or even with re-establishing the correct airspeed profile, should the airspeed be allowed to decay at critical times during the approach or departure.

 

Compounding this problem is the known danger area in operating a new or unfamiliar aircraft type. This is a well recognized, and known danger area even for the experienced pilot.............................................................Maj...

I attended a Flight Safety conference a while back where various incidents were analysed. One was as follows:

 

Scenario: B777 on 500' final approach to land in perfect conditions. New to type copilot is flying. Aircraft is high on profile and aim point is long. Captain prompts copilot twice after going below 1500' to increase rate of descent to fix glidepath. At 500' in exhasperation, captain grabs control column, pushes forward and sets up high rate of descent to fix glidepath and aim point. Aircraft proceeds on this vector with speed being nicely controlled by autothrottle until aircraft impacts runway, with no flare, pushing nosegear up around 3' and buckling a significant amount of forward fuselage.

 

The copilot assumed that when the captain pushed on the control colum that the captain had taken control. Captain advises he never took control, he simply assisted the copilot to act decisively in fixing flight profile. End result, no-one was flying the aircraft after the positive intervention by the captain.

 

Captain - 13000 hours, copilot - 500 hours

 

Lesson, always be clear about who is actually in control of the aircraft.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Sapphire, in fact I find the opposite. The ab initio expects prompting and critique and you to" be there just in case". The more experienced pilot wants to "show you" that they know what they are doing. This narrows the space for the instructor to take an active involvement and also the space to take over when necessary. I run a different brief for both types and assess closely as we go through the exercise.

It must be a difficult exercise at times, particularly because the egos start to build.

 

 

[Guest trishok]

As another grandparent , it must have been a terrible thing for you to experience . I'm sure all forum users join me in sending our deepest sympathies to you and your family .Bob

Thanks Biggles, The tragedy was 2-1/2 years ago, and all forum users were very supportive at that time and recently also after the coronial inquiry. You're all a good bunch of men and women here.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Again, seeing as its a GA accident, we can expect some sort of answer, maybe not within the next year, but stil.

 

Im not going to speculate on causes here. A witness saying it arrived vertically is no where near enough evidence to start sprooking stall spin. I am an instructor, and I rue the thought of you all shouting "how can an instructor stall turning base" about me if i ended up this way, before getting all the facts.

 

There are several very real possibilities that could produce the same outcome for a witness. True, we can, so and should all learn from others (and our own) mistakes/ misshaps, but FFS, lets get some facts in before we start analyzing how two experienced pilots can stall in the cct, when for all we know the tail could have come off!!!!

 

Its a horrible time for friends and family, the heart sinks when I think about what they must be going through.

 

 

[Sapphire]

flyvulcan said

 

End result, no-one was flying the aircraft after the positive intervention by the captain.

 

That happened to me. Had an instructor who was flying a demonstration and after a while the a/c flew without any deviation. Then the instructor queried me if I was going to do the exercise. Then I queried him as to who had control-and it was no one.

 

Motzartmerve said

 

A witness saying it arrived vertically is no where near enough evidence to start sprooking stall spin. I am an instructor, and I rue the thought of you all shouting "how can an instructor stall turning base" about me if i ended up this way, before getting all the facts.

 

Of course we don't know for sure and may never know for sure. However if we speculate different possibilities and address corrective action then we learn even more and keep the forum filled with posts.

 

 

[David Isaac]

The one good thing about the ATSB involvement is that we will lean substantial evidence from the wreckage, for example how it arrived (either at speed in the nose down attitude or at stall speed in a flat attitude) from the geometry of the crush on the wreckage. Hopefully they will also determine power setting if any.

 

We may never learn what caused it depending on the damage to the wreckage and if there was a control failure whether that evidence survived the post accident fire, or can be found nearby. In my heart I hope it was a freak incident beyond either their control, but I am also a realist, there are other possibilities.

 

Incredibly sad, all I know is that my friends and family and others have suffered terrible unthinkable loss .... it happens.

 

Motz ... I hope this never happens to you buddy, that would also be unthinkable.

 

 

[David Isaac]

Chris's funeral was yesterday at Currumbin. Approximately 1,000 in attendance, he was well known in the business and church community and will be sadly missed.

 

Some further information has come to light which indicates the aircraft was under some form of control as it impacted with the ground some 150 metres before the crash site. The aircraft went through a fence before descending down a trough like depression in the ground where it impacted with some concrete blocks which caused the aircraft to invert. Once inverted the occupants were trapped and sadly the ensuing fire consumed them. This is terribly tragic as otherwise they may have survived as I have been told the aircraft cabin was largely intact post impact, pre fire.

 

I am told the ATSB have taken the engine and one wing for further investigation. Hopefully the preliminary report due in about 30 days will give some understanding of how two qualified pilots can end up in this situation.

 

It would appear the stall spin possibility has been eliminated.

 

Rest in peace our dear friends.

 

 

[turboplanner]

That's at least some relief

 

 

[facthunter]

Lot of folks there. Fire is not good. Thinking of you, David. Nev.

 

 

[kaz3g]

I despair at the lack of 'unusual attitude' awareness in modern pilots of both GA and RAA ilk..

I agree, David. It is something that should be taught and practised.

 

I learned about spins and recovery in gliders where this is considered basic stuff. I then did aeros in gliders and followed up with some more in a Decathlon.

 

I also learned that speed is your friend when close to the ground because you can trade it for height. Low and slow is what kills!

 

Kaz

 

 

[kaz3g]

They were never like that in my history - always a rectangle, however what WAS drummed in to me was setting up the landing from mid downwind and a religious (preferably 20', rap on the knuckles at 50') adherence to correct altitude. The radius of the corners was to suit the aircraft. Despite best judgement sometimes I undershoot the alignment with Final tracl, sometimes I overshoot it. Since the Lancair crash, if it's going to overshoot I let it, and realign as part of the turn, I never yank it into a tighter turn if I've misjudged and started to overshoot.

Navy flyers generally flew a curving turn from downwind to final. Don't know about now but that was how they got TD's down on the deck.

 

Kaz

 

 

[motzartmerv]

That just downright sux david. Hope everyone is pulling through mate. Dont let your mind runaway with bad thoughts.

 

cheers

 

 

[David Isaac]

Thanks Motz,

 

It has sure shaken us all up, and I am getting the subliminal looks from the family ... you know the "... are you sure it is safe to continue your flying David ..." .

 

The recent stats don't make it appear very safe ... yet we know it is safe unless the cards are stacked against you on the day.

 

Knowing they probably survived the impact, but inverted and trapped and then to pass in the ensuing fire has really rattled me, makes me glad I own a high wing.

 

 

[facthunter]

Being realistic, it probably is NOT that safe. Air crashes are always dramatic not benign, and attract attention and emotions far more than many other activities.

 

As far as risk is concerned and statistics, the worst place to be is in a hospital. Misadventure/errors kill over 10,000 per annum in Australia and over 660,000 pa in the USA. ( That's about 2 TWO jumbo loads of people per day) NOTHING is done about it. 25% of hospital admissions are as the result of inappropriate use of medicinal drugs.

 

In flying, I worry about mid air collision, in flight fire and structural failure mainly, Weather is another for the unprepared/excessively venturesome/ unlucky. Most of the other factors are up to me,( the pilot and operator.)

 

Regardless of the cause of this event, my constant advice is to do an EMT flying course. You can then FLY your 3 axis plane in 3 axis confidently. ( not too confidently, as some respect for your exposure/situation must remain). By this I mean CONTROL it in any situation to the maximum possible extent when the unexpected happens. Optimise your chances of survival. I make NO inference whatever, in what I just said being relevent as regards this terrible outcome which is so wrenchingly sad for so many who knew the people involved. I am commenting on stats and air safety generally, and us getting it right when things go wrong. I have also gone very close to not wanting to be exposed to much more loss of friends in an aviation environment, and walking away from it. Nev

 

 

[David Isaac]

Thanks Nev,

 

I think that puts it in perspective, for me at least.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Think you guys need a new thread...

 

Done. Affected posts moved here;

 

http://www.recreationalflying.com/threads/driver-vs-pilot-skills-split-from-lismore-accident.51382/

 

 

[Kathy Kunz]

Chris's funeral was yesterday at Currumbin. Approximately 1,000 in attendance, he was well known in the business and church community and will be sadly missed.Some further information has come to light which indicates the aircraft was under some form of control as it impacted with the ground some 150 metres before the crash site. The aircraft went through a fence before descending down a trough like depression in the ground where it impacted with some concrete blocks which caused the aircraft to invert. Once inverted the occupants were trapped and sadly the ensuing fire consumed them. This is terribly tragic as otherwise they may have survived as I have been told the aircraft cabin was largely intact post impact, pre fire.

 

I am told the ATSB have taken the engine and one wing for further investigation. Hopefully the preliminary report due in about 30 days will give some understanding of how two qualified pilots can end up in this situation.

 

It would appear the stall spin possibility has been eliminated.

 

Rest in peace our dear friends.

[Kathy Kunz]

Hello David , I am new to this and I am not a pilot . I am Chris Bowles's sister . Thank you for all the lovely things you have said about Chris .Thank you for being his friend .Were you from the flying school or a business associate ? As for you , it was a shock to me when I received the call to say he had passed on and as a family are still trying to come to grips with what may have happened to Chris and Michael on the the day . I visited the site of the accident a week after it happened( the day before we said our farewells to Chris) . It was sad to envision what might have happened . As I said I am not a pilot but this is what we saw. The aircraft had come down into the paddock and had travelled for approx. 130 metre before going through a barbed wire fence . There was at this point a very marked impression of a left wheel tread( I guess this is the side Chris would have been on ) and this is where we think it went crazy . Just ahead of them were 2 concrete blocks (we think they were old feeding troughs ) protruding from the grass . This is where we were told they impacted and then flipped over into a gully .It is so sad to think if these were not there,possibly there would have been a slim chance of them getting out . I am so distressed to think what happened after this and can only hope that this tragedy will have never happen again . We cannot express how we feel - the loss immeasurable .I know Chris always told me he felt like a great big bird flying way up high and that he felt free !! You guys out there, pay heed to what your loved ones are saying .I would love to keep in touch as I need to to know more and understand what and why ??Perhaps this will be a closure for me ???????? or not. Thank you once again.

 

 

[David Isaac]

Hi Kathy,

 

I think we have met, Shirley and I are old friends of Chris and Donna from the old Sydney days. We are also close friends of Haley Swanson who Chris gave away at her recent wedding we attended on the Gold Coast. I remember distinctly Chris being excited about learning to fly some years ago and then his secret that he had purchased the Tobago from overseas, he told me this at Haley's wedding in September, he was so excited.

 

We received a beautiful letter from Chris's oldest son Ryan today; the final newsletter of his fathers business announcing the sad loss and a great tribute to his God fearing father. Chris would have been so proud of him.

 

Stay in touch Kathy, I will post the ATSB findings when they are available. You can contact me on 0412 221 469 if you wish.

 

 

[Kathy Kunz]

Hi Kathy,I think we have met, Shirley and I are old friends of Chris and Donna from the old Sydney days. We are also close friends of Haley Swanson who Chris gave away at her recent wedding we attended on the Gold Coast. I remember distinctly Chris being excited about learning to fly some years ago and then his secret that he had purchased the Tobago from overseas, he told me this at Haley's wedding in September, he was so excited.

We received a beautiful letter from Chris's oldest son Ryan today; the final newsletter of his fathers business announcing the sad loss and a great tribute to his God fearing father. Chris would have been so proud of him.

 

Stay in touch Kathy, I will post the ATSB findings when they are available. You can contact me on 0412 221 469 if you wish.