Lismore accident

[turboplanner]

I just skimmed some discussion on weather, but it sounded a bit rough. Wind shear or a big gust right at the wrong point in the circuit perhaps?

 

 

[mates rates]

My question would be how many hours did the instructor have on type?Without wishing to denigrate anyone here,the "system" allows instructors to endorse people on an aircraft type without having even flown the aircraft type themselves! I know nothing about this aircraft but a quick check of the Internet shows it has a high wing loading so that means extra vigilance when flying this type.My condolences to all involved.

 

 

[turboplanner]

It's a valid question MR, I guess that information will come out quickly, but regardless of that, this one brings to mind the Lancair spin on final at Bankstown by a 2000 hour pilot.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

So sorry to hear of this loss, David. It's no comfort to know that others will learn from fatal mistakes, but my own ideal aeroplane just got a lot slower and more forgiving. That 1.3Vs sure is a minimum, given all the things that can bite us during a slow approach. We're depending on an invisible medium to keep us up, and we can't see the air currents that can turn a safe approach into a sudden disaster. Bugger the slippery wing profiles and complex retractables; let's stick with something that will get us home to our loved ones.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Funny you should say that OK, my aspirations have turned from the 210 to the 205 after reading discussions over the last couple of years. In fact I'm probably lucky I ran out of spare cash to fly the 210 - I was throwing it round corners like a Cherokee, probably very lucky.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Maybe I'm finally growing up...

 

 

[rankamateur]

Remembering that I am not a pilot, yet, but obviously turning base onto final is the most dangerous point in the circuit. Does that mean that circuits were safer back whan they were circuits like the speedway with long sides and a gentle curve at each end joining the two sides, instead of having a sharp turn at reduced airspeed near to the ground as we have now? Is there any way back?

 

 

[turboplanner]

Remembering that I am not a pilot, yet, but obviously turning base onto final is the most dangerous point in the circuit. Does that mean that circuits were safer back whan they were circuits like the speedway with long sides and a gentle curve at each end joining the two sides, instead of having a sharp turn at reduced airspeed near to the ground as we have now? Is there any way back?

They were never like that in my history - always a rectangle, however what WAS drummed in to me was setting up the landing from mid downwind and a religious (preferably 20', rap on the knuckles at 50') adherence to correct altitude. The radius of the corners was to suit the aircraft. Despite best judgement sometimes I undershoot the alignment with Final tracl, sometimes I overshoot it. Since the Lancair crash, if it's going to overshoot I let it, and realign as part of the turn, I never yank it into a tighter turn if I've misjudged and started to overshoot.

 

 

[dazza 38]

Yes it was a S.O.C.A.T.A.-GROUPE AEROSPATIALE Trinidad Model: TB-20.Chris was very proud of his acquisition and was looking forward to doing his conversion. We were only comparing notes a few weeks ago ... his high speed sophisticated aeroplane, with my slow historic Auster. He was equally as excited for me as I was for him.

 

When these things strike so close to home I really have trouble grappling with an understanding as to how this could possibly have happened.

Im sorry for your loss buddy.So much has happen lately, I hope you & Shirl are good.Chin up. We all love aviation.It can be deadly though.I know you already know that.

 

 

[Sapphire]

My question would be how many hours did the instructor have on type?Without wishing to denigrate anyone here,the "system" allows instructors to endorse people on an aircraft type without having even flown the aircraft type themselves! I know nothing about this aircraft but a quick check of the Internet shows it has a high wing loading so that means extra vigilance when flying this type.My condolences to all involved.

 

 

 

I taked to an instructor once who did check flights etc for commercial pilots in various a/c. I asked him how he kept up with all the different a/c he flew. Basically he said he didn't. He relied on the student a lot and between them they "worked it out". I guess when you are instructing experienced pilots you have less of a workload.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

How do we know this is a stall spin?.. Did I miss something?..

 

 

[turboplanner]

We don't Motz, just talking generally

 

 

[dazza 38]

How do we know this is a stall spin?.. Did I miss something?..

Trinidads as far as I know, dont have a hidden problem.Who knows what caused the accident.They have been known tohave corrosion in the wings but as you know,that would have no bearing on the accident.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Motz,

 

#7, Local instructor "Mr Todhunter said he believed the crash may have occurred while the pilot was turning during the base leg, which is the final leg in a rectangular flying pattern before landing."

 

Another witness dropped steeply

 

Another witness - wings were vertical - like a wingover

 

The aircraft had joined and had done a couple of crcuits

 

And I think the conditions may have been gusty.

 

 

[Guest Howard Hughes]

How do we know this is a stall spin?.. Did I miss something?..

Listening to a witness describing the accident on ABC radio yesterday afternoon, sounded suspiciously like a stall/spin accident.

My question is: How do these keep occuring? In my almost thirty years of flying, I've never had an aircraft anywhere near a stall in the circuit, except in the flare of course!

 

 

[dazza 38]

The weather was very dodgy around here that day. Gusty winds. Im dont want to speculate .

 

 

[turboplanner]

Well we can always learn something from speculating.

 

No Mayday reported.

 

Could have been a control failure

 

 

[Gentreau]

Reading the instructor's comments again, it seems like the crash happened on late downwind or on the turn onto base leg, rather than the turn onto final.

 

"But I did notice when I was turning downwind that straight ahead of me - the track parallel to the runway - there was smoke. I just thought it was a grass fire and took no notice of it."

 

 

[David Isaac]

The instructor from Lismore who had been flying the circuit the same time as Chris in the TB20 said the weather was ideal for flying, so I take the air was stable.

 

The instructor said the smoke from the wreckage was parallel with the runway ahead of him when he had turned downwind (as Gentreau has commented) which would indicate Chris was still in the circuit possibly near the base turn when they crashed.

 

Another alleged pilot witness said the aircraft did a wing over stating ..." like a cropduster does when it turns"... and that it went straight down (whatever that means).

 

None of this makes any sense ... no mayday call ... was it a control failure given the aircraft had recently been reassembled following import from the USA? Why would they make such a hard turn in the circuit ... was it following an engine failure and given the sink rate on a Trinidad did they turn to make a suitable paddock??? If that was the case did they then stall following an attempted 'stretch' of the glide path??

 

I just don't understand how this can happen. Chris was 57 years old and a new pilot having gained his license this year, the instructor was 42 (I think), and very experienced.

 

Does anyone know what the stall characteristics are for a Trinidad, do they drop a wing easily? What is their gliding speed and approach speed (I would imagine fairly hot).

 

 

[turboplanner]

Hopefully there's be an ATSB inspection of the components. I'm leaning your way David - smooth conditions, 1000', and two of them that might have said "this turn is getting too steep!", if in fact they had inputted a turn. The paddocks off downwind towards base leg might tell a story.

 

 

[Guest trishok]

Marc Stapelberg

 

THE bodies of two men killed in a plane crash on Friday near Lismore, at South Gundurimba, have been taken for a post mortem.

 

A NSW Police spokesman said the bodies of the two men, a flight student, 40, and an instructor, 47, were removed from the wreckage late yesterday afternoon and will be examined to confirm how they died.

 

While the names of the men have not been formally released by police, media has reported that the flight student, also the owner of the plane, was Christopher Bowles of Currumbin.

 

Mr Bowles was a mechanic who owned Chris Bowles Automotive and ran an internet site thecarnut.com.au.

 

 

 

[Guest trishok]

Having had the experience of reading of my grandson and his best friend's death at Tatham, near South Gundurimba, in the Northern Star Newspaper, the morning after the deaths, I sympathise with the family and friends of the deceased pilot and his instructor in this accident.

 

I ask that the reporters and editor please ensure the close relatives are informed of the mortalities before the newspaper releases names.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Unfortunately Trish, I think we're crossing into an era change where the custom of the press waiting for relatives to be notified is being beaten by the electronic media - for example someone at the scene captures details on an IPhone and emails them to media outlets.

 

I noticed a few days ago one of the major TV channels using much the same statement as the Northern Star.

 

If they don't publish they get beaten to the story by the ones who do.

 

A very unethical progression in my opinion, but Australia can't control the electronic media.

 

 

[biggles]

Having had the experience of reading of my grandson and his best friend's death at Tatham, near South Gundurimba .

As another grandparent , it must have been a terrible thing for you to experience . I'm sure all forum users join me in sending our deepest sympathies to you and your family .

 

Bob

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Thats horrible trish.

 

I Know whats sharks these guys can be. I had one on the phone only minutes after witnessing a double fatal, pretending to be a family member, asking for me to confirm a name.. Pretty low...