Pilot Pete Posted November 12, 2012 Posted November 12, 2012 I think the main point here in all this is not the fact that registrations cant be processed, but the fact that our esteamed leaders have not done what has been required and requested by CASA in the first place. Why did they fail in the first audit????? and why did they not fix things back then. Is it pure lazzieness on their part or something more sinister.
David Isaac Posted November 12, 2012 Posted November 12, 2012 Please forgive these strong words, you cannot sugar coat this current problem. You are naive to the extreme if you think this isn't going to profoundly affect your rights to fly and that the problem will be fixed overnight. Take some thought for those professional operators who through no fault of their own could by chance of date end up with their fleet grounded because they cannot renew registrations. This could very well send them to the wall and for what ... for the failure of the organisation of which we are compelled to be members by CAOs, an organisation which is both supposed to represent our aviation interests and act as our regulator ... sound like an Oxymoron .... sound like a recipe for conflict?? I am of the view that what has happened was inevitable. I remember shouting this possibility from the roof tops that the members would sit on their apathetic arses and do nothing at their own ultimate peril … that day has arrived. This is evidence of systemic failure at the hands of the CEO and the executive, the Board were just clueless and lazy IMHO, happy to sit back in the ‘glory’ of Board membership (what glory) and let the executive dictate the terms and breach constitution provisions. Their absolute naivety staggers me. Not sure we can or need to do anything at this time other than sit back and watch the disaster unwind. IMHO it is resurrectable if we stood the CEO down, put the Board on notice and installed qualified administrators (preferably at CASA’s expense, since we act on their behalf anyway and struggle for resources). The administrators could easily organise our competent staff. Hopefully this is what may occur in some or other rational form. We MUST ensure RAA Aus continues in some viable form. As it is it would appear the Board are now impotent; whether they are there or not will have little influence on the outcome in my view. The question we need consider is will the CEO go without members’ intervention and will we act to ensure he goes. I believe the only way we can do that is via a resolution at a general meeting of the association and that needs to be called urgently if we are to do so. Or do we wait for CASA to do it for us???? What has happened is now unstoppable and has the potential to damage the RAA community reputation for many years. 3
facthunter Posted November 12, 2012 Posted November 12, 2012 The RAAus website tells us nothing much except there will be more info today or before? The last bit has time expired. 'The RAAus cannot process documents so sending some money in doesn't guarantee any thing. The "authority" has done the audit, and the authority has now placed restrictions on what RAAus can do. I have always said the CASA can close this show down anytime it wishes. Perhaps the members will take more interest in what goes on in the future in the organisation you all depend on to fly. Damage has been done by this in the status of the show and those who operate it and participate in it. Around 12,000 people belong to the RAAus. Does anyone here know what is the extent of the problem.? I would say NO. That is not an acceptable situation. The office is manned as normal ( or should I say "personned"?. Very soon ( if not before) we should be hearing something from somebody. We deserve that. Mr Tizzard. perhaps you are busy, but the buck stops somewhere near you, I would think. If you are the CEO, that is for the good days with all the friendly greetings, and for the "bad" days as well. You run the office and do the day by day decision things. You must know what is going on, so fill us in. Nev 4
Bandit12 Posted November 12, 2012 Posted November 12, 2012 And think of the bigger picture. Everyone who may be considering becoming an RA-Aus member may choose to hang back and "wait and see".....those who are considering purchasing an aircraft will be more reluctant, and what if it happens again? A lot of money can be tied up in an aircraft that is unusable and unsaleable. As David mentioned, flying schools with grounded aircraft can't pay wages. Market uncertainty may badly knock the value of aircraft if you are never sure whether you may be able to offload it or not. Lots of little flow on effects from this situation. The true cost will be much bigger than a week or two (or however long this lasts) of lost revenue for RA-Aus....... 1
CrayonBox Posted November 12, 2012 Posted November 12, 2012 And think of the bigger picture. Everyone who may be considering becoming an RA-Aus member may choose to hang back and "wait and see".....those who are considering purchasing an aircraft will be more reluctant, and what if it happens again? A lot of money can be tied up in an aircraft that is unusable and unsaleable. As David mentioned, flying schools with grounded aircraft can't pay wages. Market uncertainty may badly knock the value of aircraft if you are never sure whether you may be able to offload it or not.Lots of little flow on effects from this situation. The true cost will be much bigger than a week or two (or however long this lasts) of lost revenue for RA-Aus....... Fortunately I am in the HGFA (doesn't mean they are perfect and not vulnerable) - but it all makes you wonder how secure the future is with the volatility of this industry - and should I continue my training. 1
jetjr Posted November 12, 2012 Posted November 12, 2012 Despite the seriousness of the situation , no one here knows whats going on (as has been said repeatedly in criticising RAA). The talk of schools having "fleets" grounded is a bit hysterical, so far we have a few days where rego cant be processed, at worst it would be a single AC at a school and frankly if they left it until the last 7 days before rego ran out to renew they need to get organised. At this point it could 40-50 Ac total (someone said this was ~ weekly rate) effected and many of these would have rego to run. We seem to be targeting RAA pretty hard here - maybe justified I dont know - but CASA have serious form for this type of action with GA commercial operators. Constant stories of unfair groundings, licence restrictions alleged unlawful and other action against pilots and operators without ramification. If they have audited RAA operations and found issues, Id suggest failing the third was pretty serious and this is the warning. I thought it was well known CASA was looking hard at RAA operations and the effectiveness of self regulation and particularly maintenance. The worst thing we can do now is fragment and canibilise the strength we have in numbers.
rankamateur Posted November 12, 2012 Posted November 12, 2012 Fortunately I am in the HGFA (doesn't mean they are perfect and not vulnerable) - but it all makes you wonder how secure i am in the future with the volatility of this industry - and should I continue my training. How vulnerable am I ? Should I START my training? That would depend entirely if my school can maintain their plane registration, if RAA falls over previous training and experience will surely be recognised by what ever authority fills the vacuum left behind, so what could you lose, maybe a few months sitting on your hands. 1
CrayonBox Posted November 12, 2012 Posted November 12, 2012 How vulnerable am I ? Should I START my training? That would depend entirely if my school can maintain their plane registration, if RAA falls over previous training and experience will surely be recognised by what ever authority fills the vacuum left behind, so what could you lose, maybe a few months sitting on your hands. Yes we mustn't get this out of proportion hey. It is and will be only a temporary setback - and should after all help improve the industry.
facthunter Posted November 12, 2012 Posted November 12, 2012 If you are training keep doing it. The hours in your log book can't be taken away and you are supporting the flying schools who have put up more than anyone else. Rather than penalise, there should be a pro active remedy put in place here with a "MAKE IT HAPPEN " theme. The legal action has to be indemnified, to continue long term, but if the paperwork or some process is faulty, surely this is something that is an administrative matter and let's just "FIX" it. CASA should have a few experts who could be loaned /directed to sort it out. They are good enough to know what is wrong ( otherwise their audit is invalid) so why don't they prove their worth and fix it. Just one small extra logical step. Get on with it. IF this doesn't happen someone has an axe to grind. Nev 1
fly_tornado Posted November 12, 2012 Posted November 12, 2012 temporary disruption is subjective, you only have to look how long its taking the RAA to update their website! still not finished after 2 years... 1
Guest Andys@coffs Posted November 12, 2012 Posted November 12, 2012 I had a chat with my local board member last night. It seems this directive is related to audits - last year's. Something is still not up to scratch, when you read between the lines.For my part, I don't believe there is any need for hysterical panic about groundings. The reality is the directive will likely have been a wake-up call, or a shot across the bow, of sorts, to bring whatever issue it is to a head (sent from CASA to RAA). People need to relax a little - until such time as you are told to not fly your plane, there is nothing to panic about. Did you pay your rego but not receive a new rego card? Normally you'd fly on, safe in the knowledge that you've paid and a card will arrive at some point, yes? Would not the same apply here? No-one has been told there rego has lapsed, have they? Maybe I am too low strung... I can't register my new toy to me, currently. Paid for it last week, picked up yesterday... I'm simply going to use up its existing rego until February, though I doubt it'll take that long to sort out. Unstressed... that's me. So lets look at your situation and see if what you are suggesting holds up....... You cant transfer the registration because CASA has put that on hold. You assume that means you can still fly it. Ok, lets say you have an accident and need to collect on RAA insurance and /or your own private insurance. How well do you think that process will go, after all Insurance companies holding back on settlement because of an anomoly....unheard of right?....not! You are sued as a result of the accident.....The aircraft is registered in the name of a previous owner. as it happens hes worth $$$$$$ and your worth $$ clearly those bringing the suit will go for him, a much juicier target...he counter sues you....Reasonable man tests are applied and your found to be substandard against a reasonable man!!! Is it the previous owners fault in any way? was it fair that you involved him? Lets look at the car filed and try and draw an anology. Youve paid you car rego (well actually your provided the registration body a means of paying for your rego but at this time the account hasnt been debited, because to do so would be to take funds under false pretenses..so in fact you havent paid at all...... and in any event cant prove that you have paid......Would you still drive your car? Now lets go back to the audit thing.... you said "It seems this directive is related to audits - last year's. Something is still not up to scratch, when you read between the lines." As I understand it last weeks audit was one of a whole series of audits that have all unearthed exactly the same thing so "Something is still not up to scratch" is a downplayed understatement, we were told of this at the AGM where we were told that almost every historical registration pack that they open is flawed in some way. Your inference is that someone at RAA will finally have a light bulb moment, do a few minutes work and all will be well. That is 180 degrees from the truth..... The issues are endemic, to pass the audit we have to solve the historical screw ups (which took seconds to write and potentially a life time to achieve!!!). If anyone is expecting a short term solution I believe they are in for a rude shock.... my expectation is that I'd give it a 75% chance that the news section on the RAA website wont be updated today, or if it is, will still be 1% of the story whose main purpose is to soothe the membership not inform! In this case if I have to eat humble pie it will be the sweetest tasting pie I could have eaten, much better than what IM saying, however as a commercial manager we always expect teh worst and are pleasantly suprised if something better happens...(glass half empty) I try not to be a negative poster and not work to speculation but in talking to those who I believe actually know what is happening I think we are in real trouble! I hope Im wrong Andy
rankamateur Posted November 12, 2012 Posted November 12, 2012 temporary disruption is subjective, you only have to look how long its taking the RAA to update their website! still not finished after 2 years... A lot seems to have been improved since the AGM though so maybe someone stoked the fire.
CrayonBox Posted November 12, 2012 Posted November 12, 2012 temporary disruption is subjective, you only have to look how long its taking the RAA to update their website! still not finished after 2 years... Just trying to be optimistic that the trusting (once) financial members are not too inconvenienced by the recent sloppy business activities. Cheers.
ave8rr Posted November 12, 2012 Posted November 12, 2012 Well it's gone 5pm in Canberra. No update on the web site??
Teckair Posted November 12, 2012 Posted November 12, 2012 Well it's gone 5pm in Canberra. No update on the web site?? Nope
Ches Posted November 12, 2012 Posted November 12, 2012 Yes ite past 5pm Canberra??wander why no update, may be someone has a big headache???? or they have not looked at the time:bash:
AM397 Posted November 12, 2012 Posted November 12, 2012 I had a chat with my local board member last night. It seems this directive is related to audits - last year's. Something is still not up to scratch, when you read between the lines.For my part, I don't believe there is any need for hysterical panic about groundings. The reality is the directive will likely have been a wake-up call, or a shot across the bow, of sorts, to bring whatever issue it is to a head (sent from CASA to RAA). People need to relax a little - until such time as you are told to not fly your plane, there is nothing to panic about. Did you pay your rego but not receive a new rego card? Normally you'd fly on, safe in the knowledge that you've paid and a card will arrive at some point, yes? Would not the same apply here? No-one has been told there rego has lapsed, have they? Maybe I am too low strung... I can't register my new toy to me, currently. Paid for it last week, picked up yesterday... I'm simply going to use up its existing rego until February, though I doubt it'll take that long to sort out. Unstressed... that's me. So, in essence, you're arguing that you only need to be worried the moment you're directly affected! Awesome, I'd love to live in such a bubble of alternative reality! Seriously, it would be so much easier to not worry about the plight of others one bit, and not having to worry about myself until the time I was directly affected. Screw everyone else, and for consistency, when you then do get affected, please keep it to yourself and worry about it in your lonesome, because why should anyone else care about your plight, if they aren't themselves directly affected? I don't think you're "low strung", I think it's a matter of (not) caring, and a matter of (a lack of) abilities to see tendencies. 5
Tex Posted November 12, 2012 Posted November 12, 2012 So lets look at your situation and see if what you are suggesting holds up.......You cant transfer the registration because CASA has put that on hold. You assume that means you can still fly it. Ok, lets say you have an accident and need to collect on RAA insurance and /or your own private insurance. How well do you think that process will go, after all Insurance companies holding back on settlement because of an anomoly....unheard of right?....not! You are sued as a result of the accident.....The aircraft is registered in the name of a previous owner. as it happens hes worth $$$$$$ and your worth $$ clearly those bringing the suit will go for him, a much juicier target...he counter sues you....Reasonable man tests are applied and your found to be substandard against a reasonable man!!! Is it the previous owners fault in any way? was it fair that you involved him? Lets look at the car filed and try and draw an anology. Youve paid you car rego (well actually your provided the registration body a means of paying for your rego but at this time the account hasnt been debited, because to do so would be to take funds under false pretenses..so in fact you havent paid at all...... and in any event cant prove that you have paid......Would you still drive your car? I hope Im wrong Andy Quite the "what if " Andy....flying an aircraft registered in someone else's name would not cause the type of drama you suggest. People do it all the time. Just the same as driving someone else's car. Just because it is a sale and it has not been transferred yet is moot. Have proof of sale/disposal, proof of purchase etc.... You are simply waiting for the appropriate authority to transfer the rego. Nothing illegal has occurred, nor anything to prevent you from flying the aircraft. If that were the case you (anyone) could not collect/fly your new plane until you received the new rego papers in the post. Ownership transfer precedes rego transfer. 1
fly_tornado Posted November 12, 2012 Posted November 12, 2012 I am guessing Adam is thinking that he has 11 months 3.5 weeks until it's his problem. Perhaps what Adam hasn't considered, if the RAA can't register planes, the RAA ceases to exist. You can't fly a VH aircraft with a certificate. This could happen tomorrow. In which case his rego is invalid along with his certificate along with everyone who's rego expires this week. The law is the law. 2
Guest Andys@coffs Posted November 12, 2012 Posted November 12, 2012 Quite the "what if " Andy....flying an aircraft registered in someone else's name would not cause the type of drama you suggest. People do it all the time. Just the same as driving someone else's car. Just because it is a sale and it has not been transferred yet is moot. Have proof of sale/disposal, proof of purchase etc.... You are simply waiting for the appropriate authority to transfer the rego. Nothing illegal has occurred, nor anything to prevent you from flying the aircraft. If that we're the case you (anyone) could not collect/fly your new plane until you received the new rego papers in the post. Ownership transfer precedes rego transfer. Yes true, I mixed up transfer and renewal in my post, the the post I was responding to was transfer only.... Renewal however is very much a problem. I understand your point of people flying otherpeoples aircraft all the time and agree, however I think as an owner there is an obligation (and whether inferred or actually written Im not sure) to have the aircraft registered in your name, but as you say when I purchased my aircraft I insured it first, flew it home with the paperwork for transfer partially complete (previous owner details) and then did the transfer when I got home. I guess the obligation to transfer exists in that you must expect to get renewal papers at rego time and that wont happen if you havent transferred into your name first. Andy Andy
dazza 38 Posted November 12, 2012 Posted November 12, 2012 I think every body should take a chill pill & wait & see what happens.Lets wait until Monday end of business. Then throw the daggers. Peeps , CALM DOWN. Im a little disappointed that we have not seen anything added onto the RAA web site news section. Alot of people are concerned, even if the RAA in Canberra dont know anymore than the did on friday.It would be nice if they could update & say that in the news section.
turboplanner Posted November 12, 2012 Posted November 12, 2012 Yes we mustn't get this out of proportion hey. It is and will be only a temporary setback - and should after all help improve the industry. You did get this from CASA Crayonbox? They are the ones who made the decision and will have specified the actions which decide the degree of seriousness in inconvenience/bankruptcies.
Tex Posted November 12, 2012 Posted November 12, 2012 So, in essence, you're arguing that you only need to be worried the moment you're directly affected! Awesome, I'd love to live in such a bubble of alternative reality!Seriously, it would be so much easier to not worry about the plight of others one bit, and not having to worry about myself until the time I was directly affected. Screw everyone else, and for consistency, when you then do get affected, please keep it to yourself and worry about it in your lonesome, because why should anyone else care about your plight, if they aren't themselves directly affected? I don't think you're "low strung", I think it's a matter of (not) caring, and a matter of (a lack of) abilities to see tendencies. Quality rant that! I agree with Adam and the context in which it was quite apparently written, attributing some self centred or selfish purpose to the post is a long bow to draw and an unnecessary and ill directed attack. 2
flyerme Posted November 12, 2012 Posted November 12, 2012 might be time to light up the torches , take out the pitch forks,and go on a witch hunt to canberra!!we want to know whats going on RAA,,???? !!!in detail and sooner rather than later..!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! update the site RAA as stated it would be!!!.... 1
Guest Andys@coffs Posted November 12, 2012 Posted November 12, 2012 Im a little disappointed that we have not seen anything added onto the RAA web site news section. If its SR who does the update perhaps its Queensland business hours which are an hour and 10years behind the rest of the east coast Joke boys!!!! settle we need some levity here....before the public stoning starts!!
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