RAAus Fails CASA Audit Again

[David Isaac]

There is work in the background to call a general meeting. However this needs careful preparation and acess to appropriate documentation in order to properly form the proposed agenda.

 

Going in half cocked with a censure motion on the Board is not the way to do this. We need to set the framework for sustainable management during this period.

 

Anyone wishing to offer considered suggestions to this end should contact Don Ramsay.

 

In the meantime, members and clubs should write to the Board expressing their views in a professional manner.

 

It is our intention to call a special general meeting when we have considered the basis of calling the meeting and the proposed agenda.

 

 

[winsor68]

. If you don't hold us accountable, we will not hold accountable those down the line.John McK

Agreed. We must hold them accountable.

 

 

[Admin]

Additionally in absolute terms the board has failed to produce the financial reports and AGM minutes in direct contravention of the rules of association. How much more will we tolerate.

There is work in the background to call a general meeting. However this needs careful preparation and acess to appropriate documentation in order to properly form the proposed agenda.Going in half cocked with a censure motion on the Board is not the way to do this. We need to set the framework for sustainable management during this period.

 

Anyone wishing to offer considered suggestions to this end should contact Don Ramsay.

 

In the meantime, members and clubs should write to the Board expressing their views in a professional manner.

 

It is our intention to call a special general meeting when we have considered the basis of calling the meeting and the proposed agenda.

Thanks David...so as you put it, we have to "tolerate" more until this "framework" is developed, other then a letter to the board which I propose will not achieve anything?

 

 

[David Isaac]

Patience and we will do this well. Go off half cocked and we lower our own expectations.

 

BTW the constitutional changes voted on at the AGM are valid whether published or not.

 

 

[winsor68]

We really are all in the sxxt together now... but I gotta ask.... Anyone still think that the introduction of faster and more complex GA types into the AUF was not having a negative effect? If you recall some of us have had this conversation for a long time... and are trying so hard not to say "I told you so"...

 

As I have always said... I fully support LSA/GA types as many of us are now expecting to fly but am in this to fly Ultralights. As I have also always said... AUF was never intended or had systems to manage this new GA. This is exactly what I was concerned about.

 

 

[turboplanner]

We really are all in the sxxt together now... but I gotta ask.... Anyone still think that the introduction of faster and more complex GA types into the AUF was not having a negative effect? If you recall some of us have had this conversation for a long time... and are trying so hard not to say "I told you so"...As I have always said... I fully support LSA/GA types as many of us are now expecting to fly but am in this to fly Ultralights. As I have also always said... AUF was never intended or had systems to manage this new GA. This is exactly what I was concerned about.

Well Win, based on the questions I asked, and the vague answers. admittedly in a short time frame I'd suggest that the bulk of the Members wouldn't have a clue what you are talking about, with the exception of a very few who were going to make a killing out of it, the members did not approve the introduction and did not give the board approval to move forward with the introduction, and given the apparent mess this has created, and potential costs to unsuspecting flying schools and members, the entrepreneurs owe a lot of money.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Patience and we will do this well. Go off half cocked and we lower our own expectations.BTW the constitutional changes voted on at the AGM are valid whether published or not.

I would suggest that any vote at a GM based on the decision voted on at the AGM voting fiasco would be overturned simply and easily by a Court.

 

A vote where non members and members are all voting in the one audience is not a lawful vote.

 

That can be fixed in time, and doesn't alter the fact that a meeting should be called as quickly as possible.

 

However, to be safe members need to be working on the original (high) numbers required.

 

Also to accuse the present regime of secrecy and then advise that persons unknown are working on an unknown agenda bypassing input from members, is hypocvrytical and just as bad as the present regime.

 

If you are saying transparency isn't there with the present group then any new group needs meticulous transparency, and that is not a few mates getting in a huddle then landing their decisions on unsuspecting members.

 

Right now, by far the most important priority is rapid compliance with the CASA Audit requirements and getting aircraft back in the sky. The blood letting and alternative theories can come later.

 

 

[Teckair]

We really are all in the sxxt together now... but I gotta ask.... Anyone still think that the introduction of faster and more complex GA types into the AUF was not having a negative effect? If you recall some of us have had this conversation for a long time... and are trying so hard not to say "I told you so"...As I have always said... I fully support LSA/GA types as many of us are now expecting to fly but am in this to fly Ultralights. As I have also always said... AUF was never intended or had systems to manage this new GA. This is exactly what I was concerned about.

Yep me too but every time it is talked about you get howled down by various people probably one in particular comes to mind the most.

 

 

[David Isaac]

I would suggest that any vote at a GM based on the decision voted on at the AGM voting fiasco would be overturned simply and easily by a Court.A vote where non members and members are all voting in the one audience is not a lawful vote.

That can be fixed in time, and doesn't alter the fact that a meeting should be called as quickly as possible.

 

However, to be safe members need to be working on the original (high) numbers required.

 

Also to accuse the present regime of secrecy and then advise that persons unknown are working on an unknown agenda bypassing input from members, is hypocvrytical and just as bad as the present regime.

 

If you are saying transparency isn't there with the present group then any new group needs meticulous transparency, and that is not a few mates getting in a huddle then landing their decisions on unsuspecting members.

What the hell are you talking about Turbo ... what is the basis that the special resolutions passed at the AGM were invalid? Why not just cloud the waters and really piss me off.

 

What the hell are you talking about in that persons 'unknown' .... we are not a new group and we have invited input from anyone interested to be put to Don Ramsay ... anyone agreeing with the calling of the meeting will have their signature on the proposal. All this 'unknown' group (to use your term) is going to do is call a meeting. The members make the call from that point.

 

 

[Guest john]

To All Interested RAAus Members

 

This is the only site that is sure to get messages out to us members without fear or favour.

 

At the time of posting this thread there has been no response received from the CEO of RAAus to the open letter that was sent to him yesterday requesting that he give serious consideration to voluntarily resigning from RAAus for the betterment of RAAus due to the incompetence & negligence of the CASA registration cancellation saga.

 

It is suggested that the proposed extraordinary general meeting that is being called by us members ASAP, that the necessary documentation that is required to be signed for the requistioning of this meeting be placed on this website so that members can complete & sign these documents & forward them back to the appropriate member who is organising this extraodinary general meeting ASAP.

 

 

[Pete Greed]

There is work in the background to call a general meeting. However this needs careful preparation and acess to appropriate documentation in order to properly form the proposed agenda.

 

Going in half cocked with a censure motion on the Board is not the way to do this. We need to set the framework for sustainable management during this period.

 

Anyone wishing to offer considered suggestions to this end should contact Don Ramsay.

 

In the meantime, members and clubs should write to the Board expressing their views in a professional manner.

 

It is our intention to call a special general meeting when we have considered the basis of calling the meeting and the proposed agenda.

 

The number one concern is to ensure that our RAAus Committee/Board has the appropriate skill set, and training, to successfully govern (not manage) the organisation. Anything less will see the governance vacuum occupied by management, or worse still, by government bureaucrats who audit our government (CASA) contracts. As a Director of a community based organisation I recently experienced a government contract audit breach where a number of Board Directors, myself included, had failed to do a specific training course in "cultural awareness". The power of public service bureaucracies, our acceptance of political correctness and a readiness to seek legal redress are all contributing to a welfare mentality in Australia that is strangling the life out of community enterprise. It is also discouraging the very people who have an enormous capacity to enrich community life.

 

If we are to change RAAus for the better it must be done in a considered and professional way. We need to apply the same specialist technical assistance to the Committee/Board in its development (and the subsequent development of a strategic plan) - in the same way that management has responded to the CASA audit deficiencies.

 

Our small recreational flying club will be writing to the RAAus Committee/Board seeking a new consultative process for members/clubs in shaping the future of recreational aviation. Lets face it "this is not rocket science"

 

Pete.

 

 

[winsor68]

Yep me too but every time it is talked about you get howled down by various people probably one in particular comes to mind the most.

I reckon that we do need to remember... we really are all in this Sxxt together now regardless. We are all aviators at the end of the day.

 

My experience is that the internet is as difficult as it wonderful for communication... I reckon we could still all sit down at the end of the day and talk aeroplanes... regardless of any "howling".

 

 

[turboplanner]

What the hell are you talking about Turbo ... what is the basis that the special resolutions passed at the AGM were invalid? Why not just cloud the waters and really piss me off.What the hell are you talking about in that persons 'unknown' .... we are not a new group and we have invited input from anyone interested to be put to Don Ramsay ... anyone agreeing with the calling of the meeting will have their signature on the proposal. All this 'unknown' group (to use your term) is going to do is call a meeting. The members make the call from that point.

I thought you knew.

 

When the ballot for the special resolutions was conducted there were members and non members in the room, unseparated.

 

The ballot was by a show of hands.

 

No attempt was made to exclude non members

 

Witnesses saw non members voting

 

The ballot was clearly invalid

 

Normal procedure for a show of hands vote in a big meeting is for all persons to leave the room, and members only are re-admitted by showing their membership identification.

 

There was a suggestion from someone that one or two of the resolutions had enough proxies to carry, however once a ballot is found to be invalid, you can't separate components of it.

 

There are two problems with this:

 

(a) If board members/employees were dismissed at a General Meeting, my experience is they usually mount a legal challenge, and the decision would be found to be invalid.

 

(b) Even if there was no challenge anything arising downstream from an invalid meeting, perhaps months or years later falls because the earlier decisions were invalid.

 

So it needs another meeting and another vote, this time ensuring that only Members of RAA vote.

 

Re the second part, we've also been over this before. On this thread alone a lot of divers action proposals have been suggested, and not even the members of this forum constitute a significant part of the membership. The IDEAS have to be circulated, discussed, worked over, so the maximum number of members have input, before a list is put up for a vote to call a meeting, otherwise you are just repeating what the present clique does with the exception of calling for signatures on pre-set resolutions. If you are arguing for open-ness and transparency you have to do the whole job.

 

 

[kaz3g]

H

 

Wrong Neville 80 ....

he is naughty, isn't he? K

 

 

[kaz3g]

A thought.......You will have gathered that in my view, the nature of RAAus demands that we have a Board of Directors as opposed to a Board of Management. A board that involves itself in management is OK for the local footy club or the Lions club, it needs to be that way. We need a Board that can see the big picture, think strategically, understand what it is the organisation needs to do and where it needs to go. It doesn't need to be fettered with the responsibility of managing the organisation as well, a task for which some board members may not be competent. In our case management best left to specialist and professional managers.The board needs to set the direction, delegate the task of management to the managers and make damn sure they are doing their job. I once heard a speech by a distinguished Chairman of a number of high profile national boards. He said, 'The most important job a board will ever do is to hire a CEO, and get rid of him if he isn't doing his job'. Failure to manage competently, or to tolerate mediocrity in management at any level should be abhorrent. If an organisation has a clear distinction between the role those who govern and those who manage, and the governors truly hold the managers accountable for the management, the organisation must be on the road to success.

 

Erik

That is so true, Erik. The organisation has grown from a small scattering of microliters to where it now has ca 13000 members and is a multi-million dollars business. its management needs to grow, too. The senior people employed there need to be managers and they need to perform or leave. The Board needs to set the mission, goals, objectives and then monitor the performance of its employees, not do their job for them. It needs to look forward and have a vision of how the organisation will look in 3,5 and 10 years time. It needs to foster and develop relationships with other appropriate bodies, and it needs to communicate effectively a frequently with its shareholders. Basic stuff!

 

Kaz

 

 

[Powerin]

Just a little diversion.....it's interesting to note the number of long time forum members who have posted very rarely in the past but are posting in this thread.

 

Seems to indicate to me the depth of feeling that's out there.

 

Is it some sort of site record that Pete Greed has double as many likes as he has posts?

 

 

[Guest john]

To All Interested RAAus Members

 

In order to requisition the proposed extroardinary general meeting, the required % of members who sign the petition for this meeting as prescribed for in the Constitition must first meet the following requirements:

 

1. The % number of members under the Constitution must be sufficient or exceeded to sign the requisition in Order for the Secretary to call the extroardinary general meeting.

 

2. The specific items that required to be addressed at the meeting must be submitted to the Secretary in writing on an agenda & only those agenda items can be dealt with at the meeting.

 

3. Once the abovementioned items are presented to the Secretary, the Secretary shall set a date & place for the meeting to be conducted under the terms of the Constitution within a reasonable time. The Secretary is bound by the terms of the Constitution & cannot do anything else whatsoever, unless he or she is prepared to face the full consequences of the Corporate Law.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

I can see this turning ugly for the RAA if they aren't able to guarantee 100% of renewals going through the new renewal process, which they can't, which means its going to get ugly. Even if they get 99% accuracy that will leave 30 odd planes grounded.

 

 

[Ballpoint 246niner]

And David, with the first order of business to bring the CASA Audit shortfalls into compliance, and within that to make a decision about LSA.I raised a question about this a few days ago, but no one has said either "What?", or "you don't know what you're talking about"

 

I'd really be interested to get some feedback on where LSA fits in or whether this was just slipped in behind members backs by a greedy few, and who was involved in it, and whether that includes any CASA people, etc.

As I understand it, LSA is based on the premis that the manufacturer states that he meets the conforming standards fora cepheid aviation practices in production, and as such is granted a Special CofA or statement of compliance in his production documentation. The onus is on the manufacturer to meet these standards

 

Type certificates are issued following an INDEPENDANT inspection of an aircraft and are pertinent to the country issuing the CofA and by the issuing authority and by one of its approved inspectors, who will inspect and approve the aircraft in accordance with the relevant CAR in AUstralia in our case.

 

So following audits conducted by the FAA in the US and here following ATSB /CASA investigation of some LSA registered aircraft, it has become apparent that "some " LSA manufacturers or importers have not been able to substantiate the appropriate conformance. At the same time the body responsible for accepting registrations was not able to also provide evidence supporting the registrations. Hence CASA's involvement in auditing the processes relating to LSA aircraft.

 

So as to the future of LSA it would appear that the only way to ensure the robust delivery is to have regular independent audits to determine conformance.

 

My personal view only.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Well yes, but you don't want the Audits to find procedures and paperwork trail have continual mistakes, so what goes with that is an official procedure and checklist for manufacturers, importers, distributors and owners that is workable.

 

Then it's only a matter of where to apply the additional cost, and applying that cost.

 

And then RAA does not register a non-complying aircraft.

 

If that is done, along with what you're saying BP, you have a working system which will reduce non-compliance to a manageable zero very quickly, and CASA can get on with its work elsewhere

 

 

[turboplanner]

well said Kaz..lots of 'fun'ahead...CASA has assembled the sport aviation unit...and its ready to go!...CAN THE HIERARCY OF RAA_AUS ...WAKE UP!!!

Interesting; would this be why the RAA magazine was renamed "Sport Pilot", the name already used by SAAA? Getting ready?

 

 

[johnm]

Yes Turbo - I hope this all goes well and all the aircraft we know; and which are around the traps; are complying (including IBIS) (or it will be big do doos)

 

Time will tell

 

 

[David Isaac]

I thought you knew.When the ballot for the special resolutions was conducted there were members and non members in the room, unseparated.

The ballot was by a show of hands.

 

No attempt was made to exclude non members

 

Witnesses saw non members voting

 

The ballot was clearly invalid

 

Normal procedure for a show of hands vote in a big meeting is for all persons to leave the room, and members only are re-admitted by showing their membership identification.

 

There was a suggestion from someone that one or two of the resolutions had enough proxies to carry, however once a ballot is found to be invalid, you can't separate components of it.

 

There are two problems with this:

 

(a) If board members/employees were dismissed at a General Meeting, my experience is they usually mount a legal challenge, and the decision would be found to be invalid.

 

(b) Even if there was no challenge anything arising downstream from an invalid meeting, perhaps months or years later falls because the earlier decisions were invalid.

 

So it needs another meeting and another vote, this time ensuring that only Members of RAA vote.

 

Re the second part, we've also been over this before. On this thread alone a lot of divers action proposals have been suggested, and not even the members of this forum constitute a significant part of the membership. The IDEAS have to be circulated, discussed, worked over, so the maximum number of members have input, before a list is put up for a vote to call a meeting, otherwise you are just repeating what the present clique does with the exception of calling for signatures on pre-set resolutions. If you are arguing for open-ness and transparency you have to do the whole job.

Tubz,

I remember the allegation, however, I had believed (perhaps mistakenly) that the allegation was unsubstantiated. If what you say is true then perhaps all voting at the AGM may be invalid and that is a real problem.

 

What is clear is that if the allegation is true then the Board is even more inept than I had imagined in terms of even running a simple meeting. Mind you it could be argued the Chairman failed in his duty.

 

We should then get the 500 signatures to be sure and in the current environment that may even prove to be problematic.

 

Calling the special meeting does not require any resolutions to be put in the agenda calling the meeting, so the point you raise is of less significance, however the terms of discussion must be put and they can be put in general terms enough to cover a wide range of discussion. What matters is the number of signatures and the agenda. That is all we need to get the members together.

 

 

[robinsm]

Can some one enlighten me as to the roll of the the CEO in all this. His name seems to be absent in all the discussions and and acknowledgements. With the knowledge that he possesses, surely he would be playing a leading part of the tidying up and implementing of the auditing trail.

 

 

[eightyknots]

I believe that CASA are the base cause for all these problems. They themselves failed an audit from the FAA a short time ago and they have a long history of their own internal problems. Their failure to control themselves and the amazing amount of time and money wasted on trying to rewrite the regs that are at this time still not complete has distracted them from providing a firm rein on RAAus. You don't have to look far to find what the entire aviation community think of CASA and the mess Australian Aviation is in. Their bully boy attitude has i feel overflowed into the RAAus and this along with the general apathy of RAAus members has lead to the 'old boys club' who have taken us down this path. I have no confidence in the exec management of the RAAus and until they are removed and more competent management is installed we will continue to have problems.I wonder just how many RAAus members are totally unaware of the situation we are in now due to the fact that there is no information coming directly from the RAAus. We are lucky to have this forum. Without it we would really be mushrooms. If we did not have this forum then i believe that the RAAus would be totally out of control. I also have noticed on the RAus website a links page to forums and that this forum is not linked. This just goes to show the conceited attitude of the RAAus management. This attitude must change and i believe that the only way to do it is to completely dismantle the management and install qualified staff that do not have their own interests as a first priority.

Ozzie

I could not agree with you more. Indeed, where would RA-Aus be if this Forum did not exist to expose their actions?? May recreationalflying.com long continue!

 

(Thanks again to Ian and Corinne for this site)