Planning my flight

[Guest pelorus32]

Hi Everyone,

 

saw Ian at Shepparton this morning. He was held up a bit with a minor carbie problem. He got away about 11:30 so he was not sure whether he was going all the way through today or not.

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

 

[Admin]

Hi Guys

 

I'm back - fantastic trip - left Port Mac this morning and had a nice tailwind most of the way - some pictures to follow but hey going up the lane from Maitland is an absolute incredible experience, if you haven't already done it then you really have to do it some day.

 

 

[Guest Juliette Lima]

Hi Ian,

 

Nice going...did you get to Camden Haven and if so your thoughts?.....flew from there about five years ago in a flightstar...nice.

 

JL

 

 

[wanabigaplane]

Question

 

If you are flying from Mudgee, down the Hunter Valley towards Muswellbrook, why wouldn't you choose to fly North around the area R583B, rather than down to Maitland, and up the lane? Is it because of tiger country?

 

I've flown along the lane once while a westerly was blowing - it was really turbulent, and a challenge to stay that low, and navigate as well.

 

Looking forward to the Camden Haven trip.

 

Jack.

 

 

[Guest Juliette Lima]

Hi Jack.

 

Really heavy stuff... in respect of the lane, I'm told that height limitations don't apply during de-restricted periods (most weekends)...just normal height seperations....if this is so, you may get above the rollover from the Westerly winds....

 

I stand to be corrected about above and will check it out today.

 

Cheers JL

 

 

[Guest Juliette Lima]

Hi Jack,

 

Affirmative for the above... maintain listening on 118.3 (Williamtown) for re-activation if flying the lane....also you could fly over Willamtown CTAF-R and advise.

 

Cheers JL

 

 

[rong]

JL,

 

The ERSA entry for Williamtown says the lane can be used at any time without notification, so whether the Resticted area is active or not doesn't appear to matter. But it doesn't mention a variation of the vertical limits, so it seems they are fixed at all times.

 

Later: Just to clarify, the fixed vertical limit would apply south of Stroud Rd which is passing through Continuous Restricted. Nth of Stroud, if the Restricted isn't active there wouldn't be a vertical or horizontal limit to the lane.

 

Ron

 

 

[Guest Juliette Lima]

Hi Ron,

 

Thanks for your feedback.

 

I spoke to our Club President who does the trip often and with many others in our group, and advises the vertical limits apply during activation of Willamtown only. During periods of deactivation, the whole area can be flown without regard to restriction height or otherwise, subject to notams which advise the whole area can become active at any time during the weekend.....thus the need for monitoring 118.3.

 

The exception being Willamtown, which is CTAF-R. Our guys seem to fly this route to the coast often.

 

It seems odd that the lane would have vertical restrictions during deactive periods yet the area immediately adjacent be ok. to fly width and height...particularly as the lane is safe passage during activation. That is my (possibly limited knowledge) perception.

 

In respect of Radio entering ,during and departing the lane, feedback suggests it is a safety issue....in any event I do hear the calls periodically when flying midweek...the period of activation.

 

As previously stated I have only flown the lane five times (once last Saturday) and perfer to maintain 1000 and 1500 as shown on the map.

 

Look forward to your feedback Ron, and correction if necessary.....I certianly do not have all the answers.....come to think of it the older I get he fewer answers I have.

 

Cheers

 

JL

 

 

[PaulN]

Guys,

 

Have just been on the phone with Willy Ops Manager who advises thus ...

 

1. TWR HR are normally 0800-2130 (local) M-F only. However, restricted areas may be active at any time, even outside TWR HR and may be de-activated at any time during TWR HR also. It is strongly recommended to contact Willy Radar on 0249647973 the day before your flight to determine tower hours and/or status of restricted areas at time of your flight. Also, check YWLM notams. R583B, which is flagged as NOTAMed, when not activated is to be regarded as any other "G" airspace with the same privileges you are now used to.

 

2. If your a/c IS NOT transponder equipped you are not permitted to transit any restricted area when activated. You may transit via the defined VFR lane west of Willy and within its limitations. If due to stress of weather you wish for greater height don't hesitate to contact WILLY CLEARANCE DELIVERY (130.35). They are flexible and co-operative and will give the clearance if at all possible.

 

3. If your a/c IS NOT transponder equipped the coastal VFR lane may or may not be available during TWR HR and/or while restricted areas are activated, this being solely dependent on WILLY CLEARANCE DELIVERY and current work loads. Your northbound call at say 1500' alt should be made about 5nm sth of Nobbys ... "Willy clearance, (a/c desc), (call sign), 5 miles sth Nobbys at 1500, tracking northbound coastal, nil ATIS, nil transponder, request clearance". Then wait with bated breath for the OK or prepare to take a left at Nobbys and head for Maitland. If tracking southbound your call should be made abeam Broughton Island.

 

4. If your a/c IS NOT transponder equipped while the restricted areas are deactivated (see NOTAMS) these areas become like "G" class airspace and you may transit as in any "G" area, incl heights. However, during TWR HR you should contact WILLY CLEARANCE DELIVERY before attempting to transit any de-activated restricted area. But, be prepared to be chased out if the RAAF suddenly decides to re-activate. Similarly for the Willy CTR, when outside TWR HR this reverts to a normal CTAF®. Of course, normal radio calls must be made when transiting.

 

5. If your a/c IS transponder equipped and the areas are active or during TWR HR you may exercise the privilege of transiting the coastal VFR lane without fear of refusal (except, of course, under exceptional circumstances).

 

6. If your a/c IS transponder equipped you may request clearance from WILLY CLEARANCE DELIVERY at any time while active to transit any of the restricted areas at your preferred alt. Depending on MIL activity, you may expect clearance as requested.

 

7. Apart from emergencies, at no time may a private aircraft land at Willy strip.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Paul

 

 

[Guest pelorus32]

I'm concerned that there is some confusion about this airspace. The ERSA facts are:

 

1. R578E - this is the surrounding airspace - SFC to 10,000 and H24, but it doesn't include D589A and D589B;
    
    
   
2. R583B - north of Stroud Road is NOTAM controlled and it doesn't include D589B;
    
    
   
3. D589 A&B are the VFR Lane - SFC to 1000 and 1500 respectively and H24;
    
   

 

The key point here is that if you are within the Danger areas they are H24 - they are NOT deactivated by NOTAM or anything else and they are height limited to 1000 and 1500 feet respectively. If you are above that height in D589A then you are in R587E and it is H24 - not deactivated by NOTAM or anything else.

 

As you are not allowed in R587E and it is always active then you must stay within D589A and it is height limited and always active.

 

Therefore you are always limited to 1000 within the VFR lane south of Stroud Road - that is within D589A.

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

 

[Admin]

My understanding was that the lane is always ok except when Williamtown is active you must stay below 1,000ft for the first Northbound part and 1,500ft for the 2nd part. If Williamtown isn't active then you must still stay in the lane but altitude isn't a problem.

 

Nevertheless, when I was going up the lane on Sunday with Willy NOT active I was hitting max 1,250ft in the first part for the practice.

 

 

[PaulN]

Mike,

 

That's why I spoke with the Ops Manager on the phone. I too was becoming confused on these H24 conditions for the R areas. He assures me that when deactivated they revert to "G" airspace. H24 means that they may be activated w/out notice at any time, that is, not limited to set times. JL has rightly advised that when transiting these areas when deactivated one should listen out on 118.3 to be alert to any non-scheduled activation.

 

If these areas were Prohibited rather than Restricted then they would be unavailable 24 hours daily.

 

Paul

 

 

[Guest pelorus32]

Hi Paul,

 

I think that this remains far from clear!!

 

Despite what the Ops Manager told you my understanding of the law is that where it says "H24" that means that that restricted airspace is always restricted. It doesn't mean that it can be switched on and off. If that were the case it would say NOTAM.

 

So then if we go to AIP it says as far as I can determine that whilst you can be cleared through an active Restricted area (and H24 means they are always active) it is the equivalent of being cleared through Class C. And we are not allowed in Class C.

 

I acknowledge that Willy CTA is de-activated but any reading of the rules does not lead to the conclusion that that means that an H24 Restricted area is also de-activated - quite the reverse.

 

However we do not need any clearance at any time to go through the Danger areas. These have specified limits and so long as we remain within them we are quite alright.

 

Now I am sure that the Ops Manager is telling you exactly what their practice is. The question is will that stop CASA pinging you for encroaching on an H24 Restricted area? I have serious doubts. Would they find out? Probably not.

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

 

[PaulN]

The plot thickens ;). You're right in supposing the Ops Manager may simply be advising their local practice as opposed to the letter of the law. I'll speak with RA-Aus and CASA in the morning and get their interpretation.

 

Watch this space.

 

Paul

 

 

[Guest pelorus32]

Thanks Paul,

 

also it is worth reading the Williamtown entry in ERSA with some care. I have just done that and remain confirmed in the view I expressed above.

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

Oops - I forgot you are allowed in CTA!! ;-)

 

Also just thought that maybe the Willy Ops Manager is ...Terminally Confused:keen: Pun entirely intended but no disrespect.

 

 

[rong]

Interesting opinions from the locals, but I'm with Mike on this one.

 

The VFR Flight Guide defines H24 as Continuous night and day, which is the way I've always interpreted it. The southern restricted area is H24 in DAH so it is always there. ERSA - Williamtown gives a specific 'exemption' to the restriction within the boundary of the lane which is up to 1000'. I think if you go over 1000 in that area, by the book you're busted.

 

A question for when this is settled. Is busting a Restricted Airspace treated more seriously than busting Class C?

 

Ron

 

 

[PaulN]

Also just thought that maybe the Willy Ops Manager is ...Terminally Confused:keen: Pun entirely intended but no disrespect.

 

 

[Ultralights]

i would say that busting that restricted airspace would bring a lot more trouble than busting Class C, as those areas are used by the Military for weapons delivery training. low level TFR training and air combat maneuvers are practiced in those restricted areas.

 

i am fortunate enough to live inside those restricted areas and watch and hear the flights conducted almost every day. when they are on the range, the sounds of Hornets on full after burners, Cannon fire and bomb impacts can make you feel what its really like to be in some places in the Mid east i wouldn't want to be. even driving up the buckets way, which follows the light aircraft lane in discussion, its not uncommon to see a hawk or hornet fly over at about 2000 ft or less and incredibly high speed trying to get to the weapons range without being spotted.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Guys

 

Dont have access to the Willy VTC at the moment so am unsure of the actual R's we are talking about. I do note that at present there is this one in NOTAMS. does this in any way clear (or cloud) the issue?

 

Andy

 

DOC C0999/07 REVIEW C0982/07

 

AMEND DESIGNATED AIRSPACE HANDBOOK DATED 23 NOVEMBER 2006 PRD

 

SECTION 13

 

YBBB/R595 WILLIAMTOWN

 

HOURS OF ACTIVITY - DELETE 'H24' INSERT 'NOTAM'

 

FROM 03 041400 TO 11 221400

 

 

[wanabigaplane]

So then, if flying from Mudgee and down the valley, why not turn North at Muswellbrook and bypass the lot? Tiger country, perennial weather problems?

 

Jack. :;)5::;)5:

 

 

[Ultralights]

a LOT of tiger country... around the Barrington ranges. in the area of 4000 ft high. can snow up there on cold winters days and nights.

 

 

[rong]

@Andy: R595 is offshore and doesn't affect the VFR lane.

 

Cheers,

 

Ron

 

 

[PaulN]

OK flyers, here we go again.

 

Called RA-Aus ... no-one home until later this afternoon. Called CASA and was given a very friendly reception and helpful answers from Stuart Jones. In precis ...

 

The ERSA is our first point of reference for legalities of what and where. The ERSA rightly identifies the restricted areas around Willy as H24 which as Mike correctly pointed out means they remain a restricted area all day every day and as such are unavailable for use by us private pilots.

 

HOWEVER, the ERSA also identifies these restricted areas as belonging to military. Effectively this means that they are under the jurisdiction of the ADF not CASA. In this case, as has been advised by the RAAF Ops Manager, at the discretion of Willy Radar a private pilot may be offered clearance to transit these areas upon request. CASA stresses the advisability to accept the suggestion of the RAAF Ops Manager, that is, to contact Willy Radar the day before your flight for timely information to aid your flight planning if you are considering transiting the area. And check NOTAMs before your flight. If while in flight you wish for a more timely update, be confident that the RAAF guys will want to assist.

 

So then, if you wish to transit the VFR lane west of Willy and find that due to stress of weather (or you just don't like being too close to the ground) you'd rather climb to a safer altitude, don't hesitate contacting Willy Clearance Delivery (130.35) for clearance to so do. Chances are they will be happy to assist, unless of course they have military ops happening. I'm told by the RAAF guys that this applies also for non-transponder a/c.

 

Please note: I have editted my previous post for corrections and clarifications.

 

Hope this clarifies the issue a little more.

 

Paul

 

 

[Guest pelorus32]

Hi Paul,

 

thanks for taking the effort to delve into this surprisingly complex issue.

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

 

[Guest Juliette Lima]

Yes,I second Mikes appreciation of Pauls efforts and also thank Mike and other contributors to this issue.....we really have some supportive and informed individuals posting on Ian's site.....I continue to learn.

 

Thanks again

 

JL