RFDS Pilot on drugs while flying!!!!

[Sapphire]

:whistling:Nice time to go for a fly:plane:

 

 

[Gentreau]

But wasn't he actually out of it for more than ten minutes? I doubt "non-prescription over-the-counter nasal decongestant" does that.And, btw, are that nasal spray actually available in Australia, and are dextro-meth used in Australia, or are we only talking the US?

I don't know, neither do you, none of us have the full facts. All I am saying is that the pilot should be given the same rights that everybody has, and be assumed innocent until PROVEN guilty. All we have is a news report and as we know they are all meticulously researched and triple checked ......

 

Anyone here got proof ?

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Apparently a news article with a hand full of quotes is enough these days..

 

 

[Gibbo]

His duty times or an illness could explain him falling asleep. As noted earlier the positive test could be due to legal medicines.That's why you should not judge him until ALL the facts are known.

I do hope you're a little more sympathetic in real life than you come across in that last post !

A common supermarket pain killer will produce a false positive for methamp and it does make you drowsy. Panadene forte will also produce a positive initial test result - contained in some cold / flu tablets.

 

 

[AM397]

I don't know, neither do you, none of us have the full facts. All I am saying is that the pilot should be given the same rights that everybody has, and be assumed innocent until PROVEN guilty. All we have is a news report and as we know they are all meticulously researched and triple checked ......Anyone here got proof ?

So, it has to be proven in a court, otherwise you're not satisfied.

 

No, I don't know if those things are sold in Australia, but you were the one who mentioned those drugs, stating it could be those things giving a positive, so the burden of proof is on you.

 

The guy feel asleep for at least 13 minutes while flying patients and a nurse and tested positive for drugs, and he was fired after two weeks.

 

So which is most likely: That he actually was a drughead, or that he "merely" fell asleep after having used a nasal spray and that the test showed the use of the wrong methamphetamine (i.e. the ADHD or the nasal spray)?

 

Sorry, but I don't have a pocket full of apologetics to defend the indefensible.

 

 

[Gentreau]

Yes, before finishing someones career, someone who I presume started flying for the same or similar reasons that we all did, I'd like facts.

 

What would you like to have presented if you were the one being accused of something, heresay or facts.

 

Otherwise let's just have a kangaroo court and execute anyone we don't like eh ?

 

Here's a thought for you. The report that the pilot was asleep came from the nurse.

 

What was his relationship with the nurse ? Do you know ? Does she have an agenda ? Did they have a relationship and just break up ?

 

I don't know and neither do you.

 

I am surprised at you AM397, you say you work in journalism but you're prepared to hang a guy you never met on the basis of one newspaper story.

 

Shame on you !

 

 

[AM397]

Yes, before finishing someones career, someone who I presume started flying for the same or similar reasons that we all did, I'd like facts.What would you like to have presented if you were the one being accused of something, heresay or facts.

Otherwise let's just have a kangaroo court and execute anyone we don't like eh ?

 

Here's a thought for you. The report that the pilot was asleep came from the nurse.

 

What was his relationship with the nurse ? Do you know ? Does she have an agenda ? Did they have a relationship and just break up ?

 

I don't know and neither do you.

You conveniently forget quite a few things: He was fired after this, and he tested positive for methamphetamine. He didn't respond to radio calls either, so it's much more than just the words of the nurse. You really want to make this seem like the pilot is the victim here, regardless of the facts.

 

I am surprised at you AM397, you say you work in journalism but you're prepared to hang a guy you never met on the basis of one newspaper story.Shame on you !

You are in no position to tell me to be ashamed. Yes, I am a journalist, and as such I'm not naive. Unlike you.

 

He was fired for a reason, and he tested positive for methamphetamine. Unlike you, I don't feel a need to grasp at straws to make up excuses for someone who was fired and tested positive for drugs.

 

Let me quote something for you, since you still try to make this seem like it's all a big misunderstanding probably caused by nasal spray or the like, and some hearsay from a nurse:

 

[...] Air Traffic Control became concerned after the King Air left its assigned altitude without clearance about 42 minutes into a flight from Bundaberg.

RFDS Queensland CEO Nino Di Marco said the plane lost contact with Air Traffic Control for 13 minutes.

If anything, shame on you for trying to defend a pilot who put people's lives at risk, who tested positive for drugs and was fired as a result, and trying to make it seem like this is personal vendetta against a pilot.

 

The fact remains: He was fired after investigation, he tested positive for drug use, he left the designated altitude, he didn't respond to radio calls, and the nurse says he was asleep during that period.

 

 

[AM397]

Oh, and lest I forget, the matter has been referred to the police as well.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

This is getting a bit out of hand isnt it. There are a few that have reminded people that the media are more often than not, full of sh@t, and that the bloke deserves to be innocent until proven guilty,

 

and look at the hoo haa it creates. No body is defending him if the facts as you call them are actually the facts then the bloke should do jail time. Is it extreme narrow minded prejudice that

 

causes such knee jerk reactions? I can imagine some of you if the pilot was a black gay bloke aswel. There would be a lynch mob after him.

 

Every one just settle down, if he's guilty he will have consequences.

 

 

[AM397]

It is actual facts. Do a search for this story, and you will find that unless you think the ATC and RFDS are in on some conspiracy with the nurse and are lying through the teeth, those are actual facts.

 

Of course, that is possible as well. As for saying that the media is wrong more than it is right is ridiculous, unless you think of something like Fox News. The article is a straight forward reporting of what has happened. If you choose to ignore that, simply because he hasn't been to court (yet), you're naive.

 

I like how you twist this so you can call me (and others) homophobes and racists in your own juvenile passive-aggressive style. Seriously, how low can you sink?

 

Is it extreme narrow minded prejudice thatcauses such knee jerk reactions? I can imagine some of you if the pilot was a black gay bloke aswel. There would be a lynch mob after him.

Every one just settle down, if he's guilty he will have consequences.

Yes, let's all "settle down" after being called racist and homophobes by the very same guy!

 

If you want to ignore facts because it's not yet proven in a court of law, be my guest. I prefer to live in the real world, rather than having to rely on a given court system before I can make my mind up.

 

Oh, and you're not proven "innocent" in court. You're either guilty or found not guilty. Not being found guilty, doesn't mean you're not actually guilty. It means a guilty-verdict wasn't born out of the evidence.

 

 

[turboplanner]

One of my friends is a Walkley award journalist, and I have dealt with many journalists over many years and got a lot of front pages including front page of Melbourne's Age. Through this time I've rarely, maybe 2% been misquoted, and only about the same % did journalists take a shortcut and get the facts wrong.

 

So the recurring theme on this forum that journalists write sh$t is inaccurate and uninformed and lowers the standard of the forum.

 

Didn't ATC became concerned because he was departing his flight path?

 

Didn't he fail to return radio calls?

 

 

[motzartmerv]

AM.

 

Once again, and still being missquoted.. Do they teach you guys how to do that?

 

Ill say it one last time. IF this story is true, then the pilot deserves everything that comes his way.

 

If the story has twisted the "facts" to sensationalize it then shame on them. Ive not once said this dude is "innocent", just asked people hold off judgment until the facts are in. One news article does not constitue "fact" in my book, nor the book of law in this country the last time i checked..

 

 

[Gentreau]

I'm not suggesting that journalists always write rubbish, however they have neither the time nor the resources to fully investigate all the stories they publish. I'm sure that most would like to confirm their sources and cross reference, but they have deadlines to meet and consequently have to do the best they can with the sources that they have available.

 

I completely agree that if the pilot is guilty he should be punished to the extent allowed by the law. However I also believe that should only happen after a full investigation and not after one news report. We have no idea what other pertinent facts may come out. All I have ever tried to say in this thread is that we cannot know all the facts and so should not be castigating him based on that one story.

 

It's unfortunate that some people are unable to have an informed discussion about such a subject wthout resorting to personal attacks, but that says more about them than anything else.

 

 

[AM397]

AM.Once again, and still being missquoted.. Do they teach you guys how to do that?

I didn't misquote you at all, but coming from someone who resort to calling people homophobes and racists (albeit with slightly different wording), your opinion is counted for absolutely zero in my book.

 

Ill say it one last time. IF this story is true, then the pilot deserves everything that comes his way.

Learn to do some research. The RFDS fired the bloke, and ATC lost contact with the aeroplane. For this not to be true, it has to be a big plot to get rid of the pilot, which is, frankly, highly unlikely, given the organisations involved in this.

 

If the story has twisted the "facts" to sensationalize it then shame on them.

Yes, more passive-aggressive insinuations from your hand. Do even a little bit of research. Go check the official statements of the RFDS, for one.

 

Ive not once said this dude is "innocent", just asked people hold off judgment until the facts are in.

And in the process called us racists and homophobes. Enough of the facts are in to say that the pilot had no control of the aircraft, that he lost contact to the ATC, that he tested positive for methamphetamine, which is further corroborated by the on-board nurse.

 

One news article does not constitue "fact" in my book, nor the book of law in this country the last time i checked..

If you had even a modicum interest, you had done a bit of research yourself. This is one news article, yes, but there are official statements from the RFDS to back it up. It doesn't take much to do a bit of research. Further, the article linked in this thread is quite a sober one, recounting what was said by the RFDS and so on. Nothing sensationalist about that.

But by now I realise that it doesn't matter what is real or not, what is factual or not: You won't go there. You need a court decision before you can figure out to weigh evidence and sources.

 

 

[AM397]

It's unfortunate that some people are unable to have an informed discussion about such a subject wthout resorting to personal attacks, but that says more about them than anything else.

... says the guy who in his own passive-aggressive way called everyone not agreeing with him on this topic for racists and homophobes.

 

 

[Gentreau]

Please AM397 do try to keep up with the discussion. Where exactly did I call you those things ?

 

 

[AM397]

Please AM397 do try to keep up with the discussion. Where exactly did I call you those things ?

Sorry, I thought it was Mozartmerv who asked us to calm down. I will remove the post, if you want :)

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Oh no. I've lost credibility in the eyes of a journalist, how will I sleep tonight..

 

 

[motzartmerv]

All you have done is demonstrate how journos misquote, twist words and take an angle. All your doing with your childish rants is prove my point. :)

 

 

[facthunter]

About as constructive as most of the discussion on Jabiru problems. Try listening to the argument and not get personal and you might get further. Now I've upset you all so.

 

He may have passed out/ gone to sleep. That fact is not denied. He may also have tested positive for amphetamines. I am not denying any of those two facts.

 

There could be many reasons for that. RFDS don't run to a set schedule. They get called out at short notice. How can a pilot be "ready" for a call out that may run to a limiting duty time, on every occasion, when he doesn't even have foreknowledge of when he is to start his duty. RFDS operations have had duty time and fatigue issues in the past and been criticised for it. They have to control costs so they are not going to have lots of surplus pilots. So our pilot may have commenced duty with a head cold ( when he shouldn't have, but there may have been no-one else. That's the way it works. I explained earlier my experience with a blown eardrum from same. You shouldn't fly, but you sort of have to. This spray would be a good idea, I'll give it a go. It worked before.

 

It is standard practice to stand down crew after serious incidents( All incidents have to be reported within a short time). The company has to act or CASA buy into it, so they run their enquiry. The "accused" may have NO representation at all.

 

" You went to sleep ( or passed out) and you tested positive for a banned substance. What else do we need to know? I think we have the facts gentlemen and ladies". Of course this wouldn't happen . The RFDS are nice people and the pilot would have every chance to explain averything and clear his name. If he managed to convince the company then the company would have CASA on their back and there might be more of a look at rostering practices and fatigue management. Get my drift?

 

They, The stood down crew members, usually remain on pay. The rumour mill starts right then. You guys lament all the newspaper reports in regard to inaccurracies when it relates to U/L incidents, but in this matter, your "trust" in the media presentation of the matter suddenly becomes complete. They love to sensationalise Our Mob, (BAD newso's) but they are cool and reliable on this one. ( GOOD newso's) BUT they are the same newso's. Yeah Right!.

 

For around 20 years I was acting in pilot support in all kind of incidents and accidents, and dealt with quite a few different employers and of course, CASA is always in the background. When you get a "changing of the guard", at CASA often all the gains you have achieved in the past in dealing with these matters go out the window and you have to start all over again. I have also experienced cases where the operator had been deliberately hard on the employee to keep CASA out of it. so they avoid scrutiny of their operations. NOT my OPINION. This is what they told me.

 

Incidently when ALL the "FACTS were fully examined, NO pilot I dealt with lost his job. It's also true that many of the compatriots of said pilots were just as willing ot condemn their fellow worker as some are here.

 

It will probably always be thus. The good book says " Judge not, lest ye be judged " and He who is without sin , cast the first stone' . I'm actually NOT religeous but the advice seems sound.. Nev

 

 

[AM397]

All you have done is demonstrate how journos misquote, twist words and take an angle. All your doing with your childish rants is prove my point. :)

Where have I misquoted you? Where have I twisted your words? And what's with "take an angle"? Is having an opinion now "taking an angle"?

 

I guess outright intellectual dishonesty is not something you aim to avoid. Instead you choose to wallow in it.

 

FH, as for he who is without sin etc. I am without sin. I don't do drugs, nor does people's lives depend on me being clearheaded. Hell, I don't even drive if I'm just slightly hungover.

 

As for the paranoid hillbilly talk from the both of you about journos not being credible, and your utter lack of capacity to differentiate between various sources, papers, and articles, not to mention the different type of article, I'm almost at a loss for words. It's amazing, that unless you're served a fortune cookie answer to whether something is trustworthy, they must either all be bad or all good. Where do you stay up to date about the world we live in?

 

Once again, go do some research. Why would RFDS Queensland Executive Nina DeMarco (spl?) go out an publically say that they offer support for the two patients and the nurse, that the nurse was now on leave, and why would the ATC say that they lost contact after the plane left the designated altitude, if it didn't go awry up there? Add to that that the nurse could explain that the pilot was asleep on that very same trip, explaining why they altered altitude and why there was no radio contact.

 

It may be "standard" to have people "stand down", but he was fired, and the response from RFDS has been that he was fired because they have a no-tolerance drug politics. Now, besides this being put forward to the various aviation authorities, this has also been submitted to the police for investigation.

 

Seriously, I think I'm done with you two. It seems, that anything short of court verdict of "guilty", he must be innocent. That that would mean that drug tests showed false positives, that the ATC lied, that the nurse lied, possibly the patients as well, and the RFDS has overreacted, apparently is irrelevant.

 

 

[M61A1]

Once again, go do some research.

I can only assume that you have personally interviewed all those involved and accessed any medical reports.

 

On the internet I can find data that will support pretty much anything I want to hear.

 

No-one here has said he isn't guilty, and the reality is that it's not looking good for the pilot. However, the press in this country do not have a very good record of getting anything right and love a bit of sensationalism, so intelligent people prefer to reserve judgement, wait for the dust to settle, and then see what actually plays out.

 

Testing positive for amphetamines, leaving an altitude, being asleep and not responding to radio transmissions may well be facts, but they dont tell much of a story by themselves, and really isn't proof the the pilot was a drug dependent, reckless criminal.

 

 

[oracle1]

Gentleman,

 

whilst everyone in here is getting hot under the collar there seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding of how the drug screening process works. When a drug test is conducted the pilot provides two samples an A and a B sample. The A sample is tested in the field with a less accurate kit which gives an initial indication of the presence of any of multiple "families" of drugs without giving an initial level of concentration (except in the case of alcohol) rather that the presence of the drug in the sample has exceeded a cutoff threshold. At this stage it is possible to have a false positive for legal prescription drugs such as codeine which appear as an opiate. The A test is conducted in the presence of the pilot and at which he/she is given the opportunity to disclose "any substance" which may test positive. Then the B sample is sent to an accredited lab through a chain of custody process to ensure the sample is not tampered with to be analysed by gas chromatography which then gives an exact result of the drug's identity down to a concentration of 1 part per billion in the sample.

 

Given this event occurred on the 5th November and the RFDS didn't make an announcement until 20th November and that the above process is strictly mandated by CASA's guiding legislation I will walk naked on the village green if the RFDS doesn't have a lab report indicating the failure of the B sample.

 

Sorry Gentleman, guilty as charged, a career over showing so much promise as most of us would give our eye teeth to be flying at the pinnacle of GA, the RFDS.

 

 

[AM397]

I can only assume that you have personally interviewed all those involved and accessed any medical reports.

No, but I can tell you that what Nino DiMarco is quoted as saying is what he actually said. I can tell you too, that the facts are in plain view, and that it took two weeks from the incident to when the RFDS went public with it.

 

On the internet I can find data that will support pretty much anything I want to hear.

Yes, you probably can. But that doesn't mean all sources are equal in any way, sense, or form.

 

No-one here has said he isn't guilty, and the reality is that it's not looking good for the pilot. However, the press in this country do not have a very good record of getting anything right and love a bit of sensationalism, so intelligent people prefer to reserve judgement, wait for the dust to settle, and then see what actually plays out.

Read the article and other articles on this, and with just a little knowledge of writing, you can tell this is really sober reporting of the facts. They even threw in an "alleged" since he hasn't been to court (yet).

 

Testing positive for amphetamines, leaving an altitude, being asleep and not responding to radio transmissions may well be facts, but they dont tell much of a story by themselves, and really isn't proof the the pilot was a drug dependent, reckless criminal.

Wow. The individual thing may not tell a clear story, but add them up and put them together, they most emphatically do.

 

But hey, let's all be that naive. It must be great. With that sort of attitude, everything is just coincidence and journalistic spin.

 

 

[biggles]

There is an active investigation by the ATSB into a Beechcraft B200 en route Bundaberg to Brisbane on 5/11/2012 that "descended below its assigned altitude and also failed to communicate with ATC " . Maybe we should all refrain from further comment until at least the prelim/final report is published . I have to say though Oracle1, " I will also be happy to take that village green walk with you , although it may not be a pretty sight "

 

Bob