RFDS Pilot on drugs while flying!!!!

[Guest extralite]

One of my friends is a Walkley award journalist, and I have dealt with many journalists over many years and got a lot of front pages including front page of Melbourne's Age. Through this time I've rarely, maybe 2% been misquoted, and only about the same % did journalists take a shortcut and get the facts wrong.So the recurring theme on this forum that journalists write sh$t is inaccurate and uninformed and lowers the standard of the forum.

Didn't ATC became concerned because he was departing his flight path?

 

Didn't he fail to return radio calls?

Hmm You have been lucky with journalists. Although not misquoted, stories that i have been involved with have rarely been reported correctly by journalists. Their job is to create a story.

 

 

[Guest Howard Hughes]

Hmm You have been lucky with journalists. Although not misquoted, stories that i have been involved with have rarely been reported correctly by journalists. Their job is to create a story.

I have had quite a few dealings with journalists over the last 12 months, albeit from a 'community interest' angle for our new equipment. Can I just say that, on not one of the 20 (or so) occasions was I quoted correctly!

My favourite being: "with the introduction of new infra red equipment, the RFDS can now operate at night" !!

 

 

[planet47]

From a nurse - I couldn't imagine what it felt like to have to wake the pilot up. Can only think of being in the passenger seat of a car with a narcoleptic driver.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Right, you're the better person ...

 

 

[planet47]

If only people using drugs and piloting an aircraft would turn a different color under the influence!

 

 

[winsor68]

I have no sympathy for junkies, no and I don't believe this stuff is in legitimate pharmaceuticals. That's why he was sacked. And yes I'm very familiar with extremely long work hours.

You know... I shouldn't quote just Gnarly on this because a lot of you have the same affliction... Seriously... Stop talking guys... at least until you understand a little of what you are talking about... You guys do realize that "Over the Counter" drugs FACTUALLY cause more deaths and addiction in Australia than Illegal Drugs? I don't know where you guys get your ideas from??? The gutter press?

 

 

[AM397]

You know... I shouldn't quote just Gnarly on this because a lot of you have the same affliction... Seriously... Stop talking guys... at least until you understand a little of what you are talking about... You guys do realize that "Over the Counter" drugs FACTUALLY cause more deaths and addiction in Australia than Illegal Drugs? I don't know where you guys get your ideas from??? The gutter press?

Blah, blah.

 

You do realise that crack cocaine is not some "light" drug, right? It's the lowest of the lowest of drugs and one of the most addictive of them all.

 

And you do realize that many over-the-counter products are used for the sole purpose of suicide (i.e. painkillers etc.) and as it easily available, of course people elect that route.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Hahahahaha.... Coke is the lowest of the low?? Mate, you really do astound me with lack of understanding about subjects you speak with such authority..

 

Stick to what you know mate...

 

 

[AM397]

Hahahahaha.... Coke is the lowest of the low?? Mate, you really do astound me with lack of understanding about subjects you speak with such authority..Stick to what you know mate...

No, not "cocaine". Crack cocaine. And since you don't know, that is methamphetamine, except of course, crack cocaine is "natural" where methamphetamine is 100 percent chemical.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Oh my god.. Check your facts mate... Crack is NOT meth my learned friend. They are two entirely different drugs, derived from two very different chemicals and produced in two entirley different ways..

 

Once again, you speak with authority on something you know NOTHING about.. Do some research yourself there big buddy...

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Here... Some educational links for you...

 

http://oade.nd.edu/educate-yourself-drugs/methamphetamine-and-cocaine/

 

http://detoxland.com/drug-facts.html

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methamphetamine

 

 

[AM397]

Oh my god.. Check your facts mate... Crack is NOT meth my learned friend. They are two entirely different drugs, derived from two very different chemicals and produced in two entirley different ways..Once again, you speak with authority on something you know NOTHING about.. Do some research yourself there big buddy...

I'm not your mate, thank goodness.

 

I already mentioned one was "naturally" derived. It's like the difference between morphine and synthetic morphine.

 

However, that doesn't change the point of my post, that the pilot was tested positive for the lowest of the lowest of drugs. Except, I guess one could argue that sniffing spray paint was even lower.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

lol..Yea yea...back pedal back pedal...

 

And since you don't know, that is methamphetamine, .

You dont have the foggiest idea what your talking about...Hows about getting a new hobby,. this "troll" thing aint working out for you...

 

 

[motzartmerv]

What drug did he test positive for??Do you even know?

 

 

[REastwood]

WOW! If AM397 is standing up for journalists and trying to lead by example then he is doing a bang up job. (<- note: sarcasm)

 

Personally, I would like to know the full story, including his side of things, it may be an interesting insight into the thinking/reasoning of a professional pilot and why a course of events took place to end up where he did. We recently had an AvSafety seminar here where they showed some clips of various scenarios concentrating on human factors, its possible this scenario could prove very insightful.

 

 

[ayavner]

And we still haven't really heard much by way of follow up as to whether it could have been a false-positive...

 

 

[turboplanner]

Or even if he wasn't the person flying the aircraft.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Yea there's something amiss with the story. The problem is that he was asleep for 13 minutes and he left his level without a clearance.(according to the report)

 

So was the autopilot on? If it was and commenced a descent, then it would have been on NAV hold, and not altitude hold.. Correct me if im wrong (HH) . Im not sure what NAV would need to be selected for it to commence a decent, and for 13 minutes?? And that far out? Not an ILS surely, Flight director may do it with certain settings (I guess)

 

So... Was the autopilot on? If it wasnt, then how did the acft descend "under control" for 13 minutes?

 

If it was on, what caused it to commence decent?

 

And last but not least...If this guy was that completly toasted that he passed out, how did he manage to perform a normal safe flight (other than the dozing).

 

To be that wasted that you pass out on meth or any other drug for that matter, surely one could not operate a complex machine like a king air.

 

My suspicion is, that if he was a meth user, he was not "on it" when he was flying. Not that it makes a huge difference at the end of the day, but certainly has implications legally as to his "responsibility'

 

I know many Alcoholics, that dont go to work drunk, but im sure the residual and long lasting physical and mental effects would have to effect them on a day to day basis, even if they are 0.00 while at work.

 

There is much more to this story than meets the eye, I look forward to the final report being published.

 

 

[ahlocks]

Aye... there is something not quite right about the story as reported to date.

 

 

[facthunter]

I would make the point that if there was a simple and fool proof method of testing for these things I would have no objection whatever to every person working in certain occupations being tested every time they go to work. I certainly have no claim to being an expert on addictive drugs, but there have been so many false positives and concerns over aspects of this testing that there must be still some questions hanging over it. Merv makes some good points with the flying of the aircraft, up to and after the "going off" period. There are other commence descent possibilities for the autopilot other than that associated with the approach phase, and if this guy was say at FL180 he might start down at say 50 miles. That could have been preset. Quite clearly you cannot be out to it, and control the plane at the same time. I would also think that IF he passed out due to the effect of the drug, he would not just come to and be in good shape straight away without some antidote, whereas if he fell to sleep as a result of chronic sleep deprivation/fatigue, he would wake up and be OK. He could still be able to fail the drug test yet have the sleep deprivation being the main cause of being incapacitated. I would certainly be interested in the whole story too. Nev

 

 

[winsor68]

Perhaps he fell asleep and upon realizing he had a fatigue problem he took a Stimulant to effect a safe landing....??

 

I know... Crazy idea. Just putting it out there...Regardless I am guessing that the events leading up to the Airborne incident started on the ground well in advance and to just throw bigoted terms like "Junkie" or "Crackhead" around ... in fact to have them as part of your mental makeup... when having an adult discussion says more about the personality problems of the accuser rather than the accused...ive

 

Just my opinion based upon my personal experiences... No doubt that Illicit Drugs are a BIG problem in Australia. It thus reasonably can be assumed that they are a BIG problem in Australian Aviation.

 

 

[facthunter]

Winsor some time ago there was a pretty severe problem with Aeroflot as a lot of the ex wartime heavy eybrowed chaps ( Some survived) had a great liking for vodka as many russians do, and these guys were literally "never sober". I'm sure with some of the earlier operations in New Guinea there were plenty of pilots with an alcohol problem, and there would still be the isolated case, and perhaps more than that out there today who have a problem with alcohol dependency Airlines try to have a way of managing pilots with depression and drug problems. The female PIC of a Qantas plane in Brisbane was removed from the plane prior to it taxiing recently, in an intoxicated state.

 

You have the added complexity of over the counter medications for colds and the use of sleeping pills etc prescribed medications that have side effects with other ones, that you don't get to find out till too late sometimes. I have had to pull up 2 doctors for prescribing a drug that is incompatible with some other medication or even some food that is contra-indicated. This becomes a highly complex situation, requiring a lot of care. Nev

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Yes Nev. Too true. The issue is far more complex and wide reaching than your average joe citizen has an idea about.

 

While I would not call myself an expert on drugs, I have had more than a passing exposure to it.

 

I grew up shifting from town to town, clinic to clinic, rehab center's, refuge's etc with my parents who were with the salvo's, and devoted their lives to helping people. So naturally I

 

did the same as I grew older. Ive held people down while the convulsions of 'cold turkey' wreak havoc on them. Ive seen mothers pass out with grief when given the news their children have overdosed.

 

Ive been attacked (and hospitalized) by a person out of control on a coctail of drugs. Ive gone with police to inform relatives that their spouse's has been killed in a car accident caused by a drunk driver. I have seen first hand the devastating effects that substance abuse of all types can have on "normal" people. And ive learned a couple of things.

 

One, is that anyone can fall victim. Any one of us are only a bad decision (or experience) or two away from being vitims to varying degrees, but the most rediculous thing is that alcohol is by far the most prevelant and widespread drug problem in this country.

 

Hands down, without a doubt. It destroys lives every day, both directly and indirectly. And while naive and preduciial people can easily point the finger at "junkies" they are happy to kick their feet up at home and knock over a bottle of wine, or a 6 pack, not realising that they have just "used' the most lethal substance on the planet. FACT.

 

Society, particularly aussie's, not only accept it, they EXPECT it. Our club has a xmas party this Saturday, and I can tell you, I plan to use the drug 'alcohol" to excess. Im already planing the next 2 days around the fact i will be in no state to drive, fly, function normally in society. Am I considered a "junkie"?..No, im considered a normal aussie. The hypocracy is rank.

 

back to topic. This is how I come to the belief that this pilot was NOT using meth while he was flying. He may well have before, up to 2 month (i believe) before, it will still show up. But the people I have seen 'on' meth, could not hold a conversation, control their facial muscles, balance etc. Fly a kingair while "on" it??...Not a chance in hell....

 

cheers

 

 

[eightyknots]

Aye... there is something not quite right about the story as reported to date.

 

.. Check your facts mate... Crack is NOT meth my learned friend. They are two entirely different drugs, derived from two very different chemicals and produced in two entirley different ways..Once again, you speak with authority on something you know NOTHING about.. Do some research yourself there big buddy...

 

Here... Some educational links for you...http://oade.nd.edu/educate-yourself-drugs/methamphetamine-and-cocaine/

 

http://detoxland.com/drug-facts.html

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methamphetamine

Well the research turns up some interesting results. The offending substance was supposed to have induced 13 minutes of SLEEP!

 

This is what the info states:

 

Short-term Effects

 

The immediate effects of both drugs can include irritability, anxiety; increased body temperature, heart rate, blood pressure, and possible death. Short-term effects can also include increased activity, respiration, wakefulness, and decreased appetite. Both contribute to transmission of HIV/AIDS through intravenous injection and high-risk sexual behaviors in “sex-for-crack” exchanges. (the emphases are mine)

 

That takes some explaining!!

 

[thanks to AM and Motz for the suggestion to research and the links]

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Exactly...So much doesn't fit....Meth is an UPPER..Not a downer..