President Resigns ** Then Thinks about it **

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Could be a bit of discrepancy there Andy, I subscribe to the mag and I'm not a member (mostly I get it before a lot of the members do, judging by posts on here lol). I have also seen it in newsagents.Regards Bill

Yes,

 

The numbers I saw were for members and then others/distribution. The member count was no where near what the AGM count that was provided but was again significantly more than the count I saw for members as at the 1st of July 2012.

 

It would be logical you would think to contract for a starting amount and agree a rate for each additional as needed, or a saving for each reduction in membership count..... Perhaps that's how it's done, but at the end of the day I want to know how that is determined each month and why what we were told at the AGM was seemingly (subject to SR response) so incorrect.

 

If nothing else it makes it near impossible for members to make any sensible determination as to what is happening with the cost base, and equally any thoughts of accident rates and looking for trending problems becomes impossible if the counts are all wrong....

 

Andy

 

 

[facthunter]

When I did the Proxy for Ian, I thought there were full records of members, aircraft registrations ( past and present). Mick Poole was pulling all sorts of info up on his computer.Maybe things have changed lately. Nev

 

 

[dodo]

If I recall correctly, the ACT act (Associations Incorporation Act?) requires that a list of members be provided on request. I assume that means names, no idea if it includes addresses or status or type of membership.

 

But that list should provide a correlation with the financials. You could check the act, and if I am correct, just ask for it.

 

dodo

 

 

[kaz3g]

Section 67 of the Act requires that the association keep and maintain a register of members and make that register available for inspection by members at reasonable times.

 

kaz

 

 

[Riley]

So, if it hasn't already been done, to counter some of the management subterfuge indicated by what Jim has recently revealed, what is the correct format in advising the Board/Executive that I require a list of current full members be made available at the Feb meeting in Fyshwick ?

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Don't you just need to lodge an official question with the board secretary for the meeting? ie Can the board provide a complete list of members in accordance with legal obligations?

 

My guess is that they will decline to save themselves the embarrassment of producing a list that will include dead pilots.

 

 

[Aerochute Kev]

Section 67 of the Act requires that the association keep and maintain a register of members and make that register available for inspection by members at reasonable times.kaz

I guess from the wording RAAus are not required to send out to members the information on request (as it could get expensive) but must have the info available at the office. If you were in Canberra a request like "I would like to make an appointment for 2pm tomorrow to come in and view the member register" could not be reasonably refused?

Kev

 

 

[webbm]

It would be interesting to see what information is available since I always tick "No, my details may not be made available to members of Recreational Aviation Australia" when I renew my membership.

 

Cheers.

 

 

[David Isaac]

I would imagine just names would be available webbm.

 

 

[kaz3g]

So, if it hasn't already been done, to counter some of the management subterfuge indicated by what Jim has recently revealed, what is the correct format in advising the Board/Executive that I require a list of current full members be made available at the Feb meeting in Fyshwick ?

Just reasonable notice is required to look at the list of members but there is nothing that says you can have a list to take away.

 

 

[Riley]

Just reasonable notice is required to look at the list of members but there is nothing that says you can have a list to take away.

Request for viewing of RAAus Membership List

 

Thursday, 3 January, 2013 6:51 PM

 

From:

 

"lee naa shanks" <email address removed>

 

View contact details

 

To:

 

nsw1 @raa.asn.au

 

Atn Paul Middleton, Secretary, RAAus.

 

As is catered for in Sec 67 of the ACT, being a financial full member of RAAus, I formally request that a membership list (current to end Jan 2013), be tabled at the RAAus General Meeting scheduled for 9 Feb, 2013 at the Fyshwick offices. Please acknowledge receipt of this request via return email. RJ Shanks, Member # 014720.

 

Just did it Kaz. We'll see if I do any better with a response from Middo than what I haven't done with any replies from Mr Reid.

 

 

[AlfaRomeo]

RA has a membership database called, I think, "Pulse". That's what Mick Poole would have been looking at during Board Meetings. From any database, it is a very simple and quick process to come up with the number of members in each category of membership - Ordinary, Honorary, Affiliate, Temporary and Life.

 

If Runciman wanted to know, he could have known by 10 a.m., 2 Jan 2013, an hour after the Office opened.

 

Why would he have to wait until 7 Jan?

 

If the membership numbers were being deliberately fudged (up), it would leave room for a number of scams like overpaying insurance to a broker and getting a kickback. Personally, I would be amazed if that has happened.

 

For the record, Secretary Middleton, at the last AGM, announced with pride that "Membership numbers are still growing,and as of July this year we had 13,123 members of which 11,616 were pilots. I am sure you will agree these are very heartening numbers."

 

A count recently provided from the Office said there were 9,416 members of whom 8,968 were flying members.

 

And there was another report, not from the Office, that there were 15,000 copies of the magazine produced each month.

 

The only thing clear here is that the most significant statistic for RA, the number of members, is not known by the President or the Secretary whose main job includes meeting the requirements of s67 of the Act "An incorporated association must keep and maintain a register of its members . . ."

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

So each month an updated mailing list goes out to the printers? They would probably have a better idea of member count than the other two.

 

 

[coljones]

RA has a membership database called, I think, "Pulse". That's what Mick Poole would have been looking at during Board Meetings. From any database, it is a very simple and quick process to come up with the number of members in each category of membership - Ordinary, Honorary, Affiliate, Temporary and Life.......

 

snip snip snip

 

...................

The ordinaries would be split between flying and non flying.

 

Another class, sometimes, in member databases, is "unfinancial members".

 

The disparity between subscription income and head count times the fee is usually due to administrative decisions to give wavers, discounts, remissions, refunds and other administrative fee levels and hardship grants.

 

In the case of RAA there are two published fee levels - flying member @$185PA and non-flying member @ $100PA. It would be interesting to see the true membership level and also broken up by the official fee levels and the amount of discounting being given out for various situations.

 

Some organisations do provide discounts and fee remissions for members but don't publish the quanta as, with any society, there will be people gaming the system to achieve maximum personal 'frreebies" with little or no entitlement to any consideration. If you open up your books too wide you may well attract the fleas of life.

 

Sometimes some people need a hand, if you make it too hard they may simply walk away from the sport FX the helping hand we made to the flood victims (I think)

 

 

[Guest sunfish]

1. It is a common misconception that a member can "require" from a Committee a membership list complete with addresses, email and phone numbers. I think you will find that this is not quite the case. There has been considerable legal argument over this in multiple jurisdictions as irate members of a variety of clubs have found. There is such a thing as a right to privacy and people don't want to get shoved onto commercial mailing lists either.

 

My understanding is that all the association has to do is let you view the bare list at their office at a suitable time. It is also possible to request that the association include documents you supply in their regular member mailout - but you supply the document and pay for any additional postage, providing the information contained is not defamatory, but you may have to get an injunction to enforce this.

 

2. Turbo:

 

What has this got to do with the President resigning?What corrective action is being taken there?

The structure and governance policy of RAA is only one resolution away, with suitably researched Constitutional changes.

 

One good President can give RAA direction

 

Your monkeys watching monkeys concept might well be the flavour in the yacht club, but isn't out there in any of the big companies I've worked for.

 

Warren Buffet's actions when the SEC stopped Salomon, of which he was a director with $700 million at stake is a good example of the real world. He went in there and fired the key failures, cut all the fat cat bonuses, personally dealt with the Chairman of the SEC, fired the lawyers, auditors etc who hadn't acted in the interests of the shareholders and virtually lived in the place at a time when it was almost certain to be the biggest corporate failure in world history. If you study his actions over sixty years where for a number he was the richest man in the world, you'll notice that he knows all the products, all the prices, all the daily turnovers what is happening with the management structure. He certainly isn' hands off.

 

As for jacking up the membership fee, that's exactly what your concept would do, but when you cost in the extra fees, salaries, employee benefits company cars, and expenses, its a long way above $286.00 or $386.00 - this is not a manufacturing or sales operation where these costs are covered by turnover. You clearly haven't studied the fiancial patterns of RAA.

 

I'll repeat - I once ran an Association for 40 cents per member per year and virtually all the decisions were unanimous, and we had great success entering a new era.

I respectfully disagree and I am trying to help you. What I am saying is:

 

(a) Get professional consulting help.

 

(b) In my opinion, the volunteer association model with a President and Committee calling the shots day to day and micro manage the staff (if that is what is entertained) is not appropriate for an organisation with 9000+ members, some of whom will have competing interests that require balancing, and can be quite verbal about it with factions, bees in bonnets, Prima Donnas, etc.

 

You need a disinterested professional CEO or General Manager administering a set of policies and a strategic plan that is approved by a Board. The Board talks to the CEO and the membership. The CEO talks to his staff. The Board does not short circuit that chain of command by talking to the staff. If a member has a "problem" that the staff and/or CEO can't resolve with the policy tools given them by the Board, then the member takes it to the Board. The Chairman / President is there to make sure the Board is functioning and relating properly to the CEO and membership. He/She is responsible for making the system works, the Board is responsible for the policies and strategies. The CEO is responsible for executing those policies and strategies.

 

Without such a structure in my opinion, no matter who you elect or hire, they are going to be enmired in dealing with dozens of problems and the staff will again discover that they have 9000 bosses, some of whom are more influential than others.

 

© Your contract and relationship with CASA is critical to your survival and requires virtually full time management in my opinion. That alone requires professional management because they can and will ground the lot of you if they decide that your activities are so badly managed that they become a danger to the general public. For example, where is the RAA Safety Management System (SMS)? CASA is requiring organisations to have one.

 

(d) Your example of Warren Buffet is not relevant because Buffet was the largest shareholder and thus gets to call the shots. If you think a new RAA President can go in and do a Buffet, think again. A commercial enterprise is not a democracy. Buffet paid $700 million for the right to call the shots. You paid what? $186 like everybody else? Buffet also is a figurehead these days with a stack of young wannabe consultants doing the leg work. People bring him deals and he sometimes lends his name to such operations. By coincidence, I once sat next to the CEO of Salamon Brothers at lunch. My uncle ran the Tokyo office of a company that invested heavily in Salamon Brothers as well.

 

(e) If the difference between paying $186 per year and $286 per year for the privilege of being allowed to maintain your own aircraft, have an RAA licence and fly all over Australia in an uncertified aircraft is "too expensive" then God help you. Aviation is not entertainment on a shoe string. The rest of us have to pay and pay and then pay some more.

 

My credentials? Engineering degree, ten years in Aerospace and airlines, MBA from The University Of Melbourne, Twenty years in senior management ending up with Five years as a CEO reporting to a high powered Board and I have the scars to prove it. I am now fully occupied in looking after a cancer patient and building my own aircraft in my spare time.

 

All the best.

 

The Fish.

 

 

[Spriteah]

Ladies and Gents Requests for the membership numbers were made and actioned by Steve Runciman. These I believe are the figures members where seeking. If you have any more questions please direct them to the office bearers or your local rep. Regards, Jim Tatlock Vic Rep.

 

Membership Figures as at 18/10/12

 

Flying members – 9760

 

Overseas Flying members – 28

 

Non Flying members – 199

 

Magazine members – 201

 

Temporary members – 44

 

Clubs – 48

 

FTF’s - 163

 

Membership numbers up to end June 2012 Membership as at 2/1/13

 

Flying members – 8968 Flying members - 9679

 

Magazine members – 218 Magazine members - 224

 

Non flying members – 194 Non flying members - 203

 

Temporary members – 40 Temporary members - 47

 

Overseas flying members – 27 Overseas flying members - 24

 

TOTAL - 9411 TOTAL - 10177

 

Aircraft figures

 

As at 30th June 2012

 

1 seat – 409

 

2 seat – 3078

 

As at 2/1/13

 

1 seat – 371

 

2 seat – 2997

 

 

[ave8rr]

Ladies and Gents Requests for the membership numbers were made and actioned by Steve Runciman. These I believe are the figures members where seeking. If you have any more questions please direct them to the office bearers or your local rep. Regards, Jim Tatlock Vic Rep.

That is alot less numbers than the 13000 that seems to have been quoted over the last year or so which equates to much less income than I thought.

 

Probably explains why there was NO nice calendar with the Dec Mag.

 

 

[rankamateur]

Is the 119 aircraft reduction in the numbers in the six months to beginning of January made up of aircraft grounded with no chance of compliance by any chance?

 

 

[Teckair]

The rest of us have to pay and pay and then pay some more.

 

 

Which might be the reason you think we should pay more. The difference is we are supposed to be flying affordable ultralights.

 

 

[Captain]

Thanks for the post Jim,

 

So that looks like a total membership of 10,177, which means that this key measure of RAA's health and performance has been overstated by about 28% or more for a long time.

 

Why would the RAA Management and Executive do that?

 

And have they overstated it to CASA?

 

I suggest that this is a (another) clear indication that the RAA Management & Executive have not been on top of this issue and have not met their obligations in accord with the Act and the Constitution.

 

As stated previously, and as you have seen, Jim, another Board Member has been throwing that 13,000 figure into my face in response to questions, so it is now obvious that in addition to the Executive, he didn't have a clue either.

 

Should make for an interesting discussion on Feb 9th.

 

Once the Feb 9th meeting (and/or the Natfly Meeting of Members) is over, & the grounded members are flying again, (and those members/trade aircraft suppliers with new aircraft can finally get them registered for the 1st time) I look forward to seeing the results of a forensic accounting investigation that examines where and how the 13000 members figure has been used within RAA.

 

Regards Geoff

 

 

[fly_tornado]

cap'n, the exec overstate the membership as a way of countering the argument of incompetence, "if we are that bad, why are so many new members joining?", people voting with their wallets, etc. I suspected the numbers have been cooked for a while, go and have a look @ your local airport, do you see 30% more aircraft flying out of it over the last 5 yrs? I don't know about you but every airport i have seen has a large number of dust catchers.

 

If you dig deeper I think you will find that a significant proportion of RAA pilots haven't done a BFR in a while but still pay their membership so that they won't lose their certificates.

 

 

[dazza 38]

cap'n, the exec overstate the membership as a way of countering the argument of incompetence, "if we are that bad, why are so many new members joining?", people voting with their wallets, etc. I suspected the numbers have been cooked for a while, go and have a look @ your local airport, do you see 30% more aircraft flying out of it over the last 5 yrs? I don't know about you but every airport i have seen has a large number of dust catchers.If you dig deeper I think you will find that a significant proportion of RAA pilots haven't done a BFR in a while but still pay their membership so that they won't lose their certificates.

They dont sent out the new certificate these days until they have proof of you completed a BFR. Well they didnt send my new one out even though I sent a photo copy of the entry in my Log book where the CFI Stamped & signed it saying that I have passed etc etc. They waited until they received the paper work from the school.This was August last year.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Who would have thought that we could loose 3000 pilots just by ACTUALLY checking the paperwork...

 

 

[Spriteah]

Could it be UFO's just stealing us. I've always been concern of that since they borrowed me.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

I am 90% positive that the reason CASA are wanting to know the number of hours flown and numbers of landings is so that they can correlate that data versus the number of hours flown to maintain the certificates. I could be wrong but I am guessing that is the next big adventure for the RAA.