President Resigns ** Then Thinks about it **

[facthunter]

Kaz, if we go down that road the 13,000 may look more like 2.000. In the meantime you would if you are not careful, have a disconnect, and a lot of confusion, something we do not need.

 

Just a comment. Sacking the whole board . Would that be a good point to argue?. I wouldn't like to present that case, in the whole debate and expect to win everone over to it, so it could be divisive. Some who are trying to do the right thing. ( actually most of them in there own way. No one is deliberately damaging the show. It certainly has been damaged and we are right in requiring changes. Note here I an JUST saying that some who might be with that action being taken may baulk at going to the extent of clearing the entire board out. A bit of continuity is needed apart from the injustice of just getting rid of the lot. Might make you feel good but doesn't seem practical on necessary. Nev

 

 

[dodo]

Kaz, if we go down that road the 13,000 may look more like 2.000. In the meantime you would if you are not careful, have a disconnect, and a lot of confusion, something we do not need.Just a comment. Sacking the whole board . Would that be a good point to argue?. I wouldn't like to present that case, in the whole debate and expect to win everone over to it, so it could be divisive. Some who are trying to do the right thing. ( actually most of them in there own way. No one is deliberately damaging the show. It certainly has been damaged and we are right in requiring changes. Note here I an JUST saying that some who might be with that action being taken may Baulk at going to the extent of clearing the entire board out. A bit of continuity is needed apart from the injustice of just getting rid of the lot. Might make you feel good but doesn't sem practical on necessary. Nev

We would also need enough volunteers to replace the board. Anyone got the time and inclination?

 

I don't think that a revolution and disposal of all board members is a good idea. We need changes, but not the French Revolution. No guillotines, please.

 

If RA- folded under massive legal costs, then we could certainly set up another organisation. But hopefully, that won't be necessary,and in any case, legal matters work slowly, so I doubt it will be this year's problem,

 

dodo

 

 

[facthunter]

Planning to set up another organisation, if it had the purpose of limiting the liability of the existing organisation had it continued, ( or if a case could be made that that was a purpose) could transfer the liability to the "new" entity? Kaz? Nev

 

 

[Admin]

I don't believe ANYONE is wanting to sack the entire board, I wouldn't support that personally and 99% of others wouldn't either, I am sure of it...there is however an extreme outcry for the removal of the 3 Exec members who have presided over the audit failures for over a year now, with 1 having been a board member for over 2 years now and the other 2 being board members for 4+ years...there can't be any "I didn't know" or "We inherited this" at all like a couple are trying to say...when they have been board members for so long...can there? Once the 3 Exec members are gone then I guess, with some outside help, the rebuilding, the support, the faith can start.

 

For the life of me I can't understand how these 3 Exec members can still sit there KNOWING every single thing that is being said in these forums and out there throughout the RAAus world about them, how much and how so many people are screaming for them to go, that they have the audacity to still stay against the wishes of so many members...why are they doing it?...is it "power", is it "I am so good", is it "I am always right and everyone else is so so wrong"...Do they have so little respect for the members? Once the 3 Exec are gone, I would just about guarantee you that the swell of dissidence will subside into a "Let's all get together and fix this with all our support and might" type of attitude by members...as long as the "Board" then communicates properly to the members.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

I don't believe ANYONE is wanting to sack the entire board, I wouldn't support that personally and 99% of others wouldn't either, I am sure of it...there is however an extreme outcry for the removal of the 3 Exec members who have presided over the audit failures for over a year now, with 1 having been a board member for over 2 years now and the other 2 being board members for 4+ years...there can't be any "I didn't know" or "We inherited this" at all like a couple are trying to say...can there? when they have been board members for so long. Once the 3 Exec members are gone then I guess, with some outside help, the rebuilding, the support, the faith can start.For the life of me I can't understand how these 3 Exec members can still sit there KNOWING every single thing that is being said in these forums and out there throughout the RAAus world about them, how much and how so many people are screaming for them to go, that they have the audacity to still stay against the wishes of so many members...why are they doing it?...is it "power", is it "I am so good", is it "I am always right and everyone else is so so wrong"...Once the 3 Exec are gone, I would just about guarantee you that the swell of dissidence will subside into a "Let's all get together and fix this with all our support and might" type of attitude by members...as long as the "Board" then communicates properly to the members.

Yep, thats exactly as I see it!

 

As to Dodo's question "who would put there hand up?"

 

I would definately in the context of a board run subcomittee (subject to a review of personal liability) as a non board member of that commitee.

 

I dont see myself running as a board member anytime soon, but on the other hand believe that I could not after all this, stomach more of the same,where the same old members who to an outsider appear to do so little, even to the point in the past,of the board having to successfully move a motion of no confidence in the NSW member!!!..... so if that means I have to stand to offer an alternate option then I will do so, but hopefully others will also feel the same and members can choose!!

 

At the end of the day I hope to successfully say at the end of all this "I was a part of this change and having been part of the impetus for change, and seeing that a hole was left I will not leave it as a hole".....but I hope not to have to do that but wont stand away if it comes to that!

 

Hope that makes sense. in Summary Id rather not, but will if we have to! I even have a shirt with a target on it that I could wear to board meetings :<)

 

 

[TK58]

I do think it needs to be run as a business, a company with BOARD members matching as Board members and not amateur managers of the organisation. I do think it needs far tighter policies and procedures and help to develop them. And I think it needs audit processes that look not just at the financial end of year stuff but also at its regulatory/admin functions and discharge of those responsibilities.

Kaz

This really is getting to the root cause in my opinion. There will always be personalities, egos, politics and disgruntled members no matter who is on the Board or the Executive. That's not the issue. The real issue is that RAAus has grown so big so quickly and being managed by a Board made up of volunteers is no longer the right model for an organisation of this size. There's only so much it's reasonable to expect of volunteers. Further, the fact they are popularly elected (or elected unopposed in some cases) is no guarantee they have the capability to manage the organisation.

 

If this was an organisation where what the members wanted was the primary issue then maybe we could continue with the volunteer Board management model, but the reality is that the primary task for RAAus is to meet the legal requirements necessary to protect the members' flying privileges. It's not an aero club or a flying school, it's a body charged with administering recreational aviation on behalf of the regulator. And doing that for a fleet of over 3,500 aircraft and well over 10,000 pilots requires skilled and professional people at all levels. An elected Board is necessary to protect the members' interests, but the Board should be an oversight function, not running the organisation. We need to separate management and governance. And as Kaz has suggested, they need professional guidance and support, not on aviation but on things like business and governance.

 

TK

 

 

[nomadpete]

John,

 

I offer my personal 'thank you' for posting timely and honest information which is relevent to the members. You have shared your facts and opinions with a clear separation of each.

 

This is exactly the sort of transparency that we all hope to see from RAAus. It counters speculation by storytellers who try to fill every information void.

 

Exactly the sort of timely information needed to keep members happy (or maybe less unhappy), and informed.

 

I hope your example is noted by board and executive members, and also by prospective board or executive members.

 

Thank you for setting a standard.

 

Peter T

 

 

[ports]

Hey everyone,

 

I feel rather saddened that my post post on this forum is within this topic, given the current issues affecting many people. I also would like to thank those board members who are communicating with the membership here so well, please keep up the good work.

 

Now, given in the constitution states:

 

16. Vacancies.

 

(i) For the purpose of this Rule, a vacancy in the office of a Member of the Board occurs if

 

the Member-

 

...

 

© resigns from office; or

 

...

 

Could I ask (and I hopefully haven't missed it, apologies if I have), but was the President's resignation given as effective immediately, or simply offered? If it is the former, like others before have asked/suspected, I have difficulty in understanding the vote to accept the withdrawl (regardless of your position on it's acceptance) being undertaken, given the board vacancy has now occurred and should then undergo membership voting to re-appoint/appoint the board member?

 

Thanks,

 

Ian

 

 

[kgwilson]

Ian,

 

As I understand it the letter has not been made public so whether it was a Statement of Fact eg "I Resign" or an offer eg "I hereby tender my Resignation" is unknown. Given that the board accepted the withdrawal and there was a precedent set in 2008 that has not been rescinded to my knowledge, one assumes that it must have been the latter.

 

Kevin

 

 

[Macca274]

Fellow flyers and RAA members. I hav watched this debacle unfold and until now have remained silent. I spent the greater part of my professional life as a negotiator, troubleshooter and problem-solver.

 

I have learned that by far the best way to approach a situation is to break it right down to basics and work from there.

 

a) Determine the source of the problem

 

and

 

b) Find a way to resolve it.

 

A) The immediate issue appears to me to be the delays in registration and grounding of aircraft. Now bear with me here. This is certainly an issue but it is NOT the problem, it is the RESULT of a problem. The problem is with internal systems that do not accord with the requirements of C.A.S.A..

 

B) This breakdown in the system cannot be insurmountable and can be fixed by tweaking our own methods or processes in accordance and with the assistance and co-operation of C.A.S.A..

 

As I see it, as matters stand, all other discussion is peripheral for the time being. Arguments back and forth are all part of healthy debate, but there is a time and place. The present distractions are filtering energy AWAY from the immediate goal, i.e. complying with C.A.S.A. directives and returning our aircraft to the skies.

 

Just my twopenny worth. Thanks-you for your indulgence.

 

Macca

 

 

[nomadpete]

Jim,

 

Thank you for joining our forum. It is sad that this avenue seems to be the only way that we members are exposed to any information about what is going on in our organisation. Maybe one day the RAAus website will offer us the communication transparency that we need. Your guidance is helping us to put events into perspective. It also helps to quell the more volatile voices. Please remember that most of us are not blindly listening to those scare mongers. We are just trying to get a handle on what is happening and to collectively find a way to get RAAus back on track. We know that there are hard working people involved, and would better appreciate their work if only we had better insight into the workings of our system.

 

thanks for playing a part in improving the communication flow,

 

Peter T

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Fellow flyers and RAA members. I hav watched this debacle unfold and until now have remained silent. I spent the greater part of my professional life as a negotiator, troubleshooter and problem-solver.I have learned that by far the best way to approach a situation is to break it right down to basics and work from there.

 

a) Determine the source of the problem

 

and

 

b) Find a way to resolve it.

 

A) The immediate issue appears to me to be the delays in registration and grounding of aircraft. Now bear with me here. This is certainly an issue but it is NOT the problem, it is the RESULT of a problem. The problem is with internal systems that do not accord with the requirements of C.A.S.A..

 

B) This breakdown in the system cannot be insurmountable and can be fixed by tweaking our own methods or processes in accordance and with the assistance and co-operation of C.A.S.A..

 

As I see it, as matters stand, all other discussion is peripheral for the time being. Arguments back and forth are all part of healthy debate, but there is a time and place. The present distractions are filtering energy AWAY from the immediate goal, i.e. complying with C.A.S.A. directives and returning our aircraft to the skies.

 

Just my twopenny worth. Thanks-you for your indulgence.

 

Macca

Macca

 

As I understand it the problem is complex, and contains many individual threads that all interelate. To suggest that we can draw a single thread out, view it, and claim this one in isolation to all others is the problem is an over simplification.

 

That said, it doesnt exclude your approach to solving the problem, each thread must be investigated and repaired and done in priority order, those most affecting the current grounding first and those least affecting them last.

 

All good as long as people dont think that if we keep digging we will find a single golden thread and all that was wrong will suddenly become fine....

 

Andy

 

 

[nomadpete]

I have watched the continual attempts by a small group to undermine the current executive and board. I am one year into my term on the board and represent WA. In the time I have been on the board I have worked hard to get as much as possible for our members, I unashamedly have had my main focus on improving things for our WA members, but haven't forgotten the bigger picture and have worked for the general good of the association.

I make it very clear that I take my due diligence very seriously and always vote only for what I honestly believe is the best for the association.

 

The fact is when I came on to the board I found that we have inherited a time bomb that was left from boards and staff long past. Even though the board has made attempts to resolve issues, many years of problems cant be solved overnight. It seems that a portion of our membership wants to blame the current board for things done long before we came on the scene, some of the people stirring the pot on this would have been on the board at the time the stuff ups happened yet are keen to blame the current board for them.

 

I have taken particular note of board members who go beyond what could be reasonably expected. It seems that most of them are the targets of ongoing and cowardly character assassinations from a clique within the membership.

 

The board of RA-Aus is not a paid group, we take the time when we would be flying and sink that into working to try to fix things to let you all keep flying. I have flown less than half my normal flight hours since being on the board, the time I used to fly has been spent arranging events and contributing to board duties. Much of the time I would normally have spent taking my wife out to somewhere special has been spent working for the association. So while you all get on this forum and slag off at the board we have put our lives on hold to work for you.

 

I can honestly say that I have acted at all times with integrity and honour as a member of the RA-Aus board. I have answered all member queries put to me both expeditiously and accurately. I have voted my own vote making my decisions on what I believe is best for the association.

 

My door has always been open and I have always taken calls from members when they wanted to discuss anything. The answers I have given are always honest and if I dont know the answer to a question I find it and get the information back expeditiously.

 

If any member has anything that they believe that I have done wrong during my time on the board, or if they feel that I have neglected my duties then I would like to hear it.

 

Gavin Thobaven

Gavin,

Many thanks for taking the time to comment to us via this forum. Your contribution to opening the communication channels is appreciated.

 

regards,

 

Peter T

 

 

[nomadpete]

Dear Board members who have entered this forum,

 

It is great to hear from you. I have now got some meaningful and useful input from at least some of the Board of RAAus. That is better than the official website has managed. Keep up the good work, please involve us members more in the process - tell us everything relevent - the good and the bad. We need to know where we are at and how to bring our organisation back to where it should be.

 

Dear Board Members who sit on the side lines reading our forum and not participating,

 

Please take the initiative to start open communication with the members. We need your help to restore RAAus to what it should be. We need to hear open and frank communication from you too. Become part of the solution. Please.

 

regards,

 

Peter T

 

 

[Captain]

To all interested RAA Members.

 

In an attempt to head straight to the point of this thread, I understand that the President's resignation email contained the following wording which is germaine to the issue and I also understand that no subsequent wording modified that intent:

 

“To that end, please accept this e-mail as official notification of my resignation as President and as the North Queensland board member for RA-Aus. I regret the timing of this but I will be sure to pass on everything that I have in relation to resolving this current issue and if need be I will continue to assist where I can.”

 

Could I please ask that one of the Board member contributors here deny that wording if it is incorrect.

 

Now I'm just a bush lawyer, but I've spent a fair bit of time in Court and in contractural issue, so could any of our legally qualified forum members please advise whether the following is a correct reading of the position.

 

My reading of those words, if they are accurate, is that The President had immediately & unconditionally resigned, both as President and as the Rep for Nth Qld.

 

If that was the case, he was just one of us mug members again immediately he pushed the send button for that email. And he was still just a common trike flying member of the RAA the day after, when the Board took further action.

 

So if that is correct, the Board had no right or power to reappoint RAA member S Runciman as the Rep for Nth Qld without an election being held, nor did they have the power or the right to appoint him as the President because he was no longer on the Board.

 

Please help. Am I right or wrong?

 

And I further ask, how can the President resign and then be reinstated without that being News sufficient to be an item on the RAA website so as to inform the Membership, or is this to be swept under the carpet too as some secret covenant not requiring the Members to be advised?

 

I also note that Tizzard still has not caused Adam Finn's name to be removed as the RAA's website Tech Manager point of contact ........ or has Adam been whisked back too?

 

Regards Geoff

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Geoff

 

Like I said yesterday, If I ever find myself on the mat for a VCA (Violation of Controlled Airspace) or someother infringement that could create an impossed grounding Im going to immediate send a letter that says:-

 

Clearly the RAA Board can choose to change history and as such I withdraw my VCA I didnt mean it. At that point in time should they choose to continue with education/sanction I can claim that natural justice has not been followed I was not allowed to have my history rewritten but others can....

 

Jokes aside there is a risk that an event will occur requiring preidential authority and there will be no one to legally provide it....We are in no mans land at present.

 

Andy

 

 

[Guest airsick]

As for the legality of the withdrawal? - I do not know.

A precedent has been set with a former Presidential resignation, and advice at the time was all dependent on the wording of the resignation letter. From memory, if the resignation was "offered" it could be rejected or accepted by the Board, but if stated as fact, e.g. I resign, then it could not be withdrawn. This a legal area and one I am staying well away from. At the time of writing this, there has been no notification from the Secretary to the Board as to whether he accepted or rejected the resignation, or allowed a retraction. Here again this is a legal area and I do not know if the Secretary has the power or it is a full Board matter. My personal view is the Board needs a written legal opinion on this matter, particularly in view of the Precedent being set some years ago.

I'd like to see the original advice. Care to share it seeing as you have waived legal privilege?

 

 

[facthunter]

If all bar one have backed the reinstatement/cancellation then I imagine the matter will be considered to have been dealt with ( by the board). The inconsistency is on record. Rescinding a resolution usually has a requirement about those who voted on the former occasion having to be the majority who rescind it. ( my words)., but that is the intent,

 

John Gardon would be understandably miffed. Steve Runciman must review his decision as indecisive. The Board are no doubt under much presure, and would like to be left in their little cocoon, but remember the Wizard of ID... Merlin says to the King "Sire, the people ( members) are Revolting! He says "Yes, I've seen them."

 

Communication in "normal" situations is needed. In a "crisis" it is ESSENTIAL.

 

When you offer to work for a show like this you need a thick skin. YOU have to trust the majority to believe in a fair go and support you. IF you are invisible, people assume things in the absence of facts being out there.. Some have contacted their reps and apparently had an unsatisfactory result in some instances. Maybe more than that.

 

This site HAS been regarded as hostile, but it is the only place where anything is being said. Tizzard's hate of Ian was palpable. He didn't seem to relate to Carol (cazza here)either. When you are a MANAGER, nobody should be aware of who you like or don't. Should the local Cop be able to hound and persecute some kid because he doesn't like him? The law and the rules apply equally to all otherwise we are some version of "Our Gang" in a tree cubby house. Nev

 

 

[Macca274]

MaccaAs I understand it the problem is complex, and contains many individual threads that all interelate. To suggest that we can draw a single thread out, view it, and claim this one in isolation to all others is the problem is an over simplification.

 

That said, it doesnt exclude your approach to solving the problem, each thread must be investigated and repaired and done in priority order, those most affecting the current grounding first and those least affecting them last.

 

All good as long as people dont think that if we keep digging we will find a single golden thread and all that was wrong will suddenly become fine....

 

Andy

Thanks for the reply, Andy.

You have grasped my train of thought precisely. There are certainly a number of issues to be addressed and since our sole existence is based upon flying, then we are in glorious agreement that our FIRST priority is to enable members to fly their aircraft. I have had several dealings with the staff at RAA and may I put it on the public record that they have handled my dealings in an exemplary manner, with wonderful diligence and efficiency and in a friendly and informative way.

 

This gives me enormous confidence in the staff and it is with certainty that I know that the registration issues will be resolved satisfactorily due to their wonderful work ethic.

 

As for matters politic involving the hard working members of our Board, I must reserve judgement, since, frankly, I don't have in my mind any basis upon which to assess their performance.

 

I suppose my intention is to in some way offer a calming influence in an atmosphere that has the potential to cause regret for some. What cannot be recovered is the word spoken, the stone thrown or the time passed.

 

Previous involvement in Boards and Committees have mellowed me - or is it just getting bloomin' old! :-)

 

 

[Captain]

If all bar one have backed the reinstatement/cancellation then I imagine the matter will be considered to have been dealt with ( by the board).

But Facty,

 

The issue that I am pressing in the 1st part of post # 146 is did the Board have that right or that power to deal with it, if the resignation was immediate and unconditional?

 

If, repeat if, they did not have that right or power, then we have another issue to heap on top of all the others.

 

Some who wish to spin it will just say that I am being a malcontent, but RAA needs to be run correctly. If they did have that power and/or right I will be a happy rodent. If they did not, then I'll be critical of governance and management .............. again.

 

Regards Geoff

 

 

[coljones]

The Presidency is an office within the gift of the board so the board is (possibly) entitled to refuse to accept or to allow a withdrawal the resignation as a member of the exec.

 

The office of NQ rep on the board is ONLY within the gift of the members of NQ, NOT the board.

 

SR is not entitled to withdraw his resignation as NQ rep.

 

We have elections and by-elections to resolve these matters

 

Cheers

 

Col

 

 

[Guernsey]

Thanks for the reply, Andy.

Previous involvement in Boards and Committees have mellowed me - or is it just getting bloomin' old! :-)

Wisdom often comes from getting bloomin old.

 

Alan.

 

 

[dodo]

I think Col is dead right. Even if the Prez quits,the board can re-elect him as Prez.

 

But not the board membership!

 

dodo

 

 

[Guernsey]

I think Col is dead right. Even if the Prez quits,the board can re-elect him as Prez.But not the board membership!

 

dodo

The Board can only re-elect him IF he is still a Board member himself, but he also resigned from that position.

 

Alan.

 

 

[David Isaac]

The Presidency is an office within the gift of the board so the board is (possibly) entitled to refuse to accept or to allow a withdrawal the resignation as a member of the exec.The office of NQ rep on the board is ONLY within the gift of the members of NQ, NOT the board.

 

SR is not entitled to withdraw his resignation as NQ rep.

 

We have elections and by-elections to resolve these matters

 

Cheers

 

Col

As Mr Jones has so eloquently stated, the Board has a problem. Our constitution clearly states the requirements when a person resigns from the Board.

Our President did not just resign as President (Executive position), he resigned his position as the Nth Queensland Representative (Board position). Even if the Board considers they can decide whether to accept his resignation as President, they CANNOT decide on the matter of his resignation from the Nth Queensland representative position. That is clearly a matter for the Nth Queensland members. If he is no longer a Board member he cannot hold an executive position.

 

As quoted from post #146:

 

“To that end, please accept this e-mail as official notification of my resignation as President and as the North Queensland board member for RA-Aus. I regret the timing of this but I will be sure to pass on everything that I have in relation to resolving this current issue and if need be I will continue to assist where I can.”

 

The logical extension of this would appear to be that since the President also resigned his representative Board position, if he continues to act in ANY Board capacity he is doing so without proper authority.

 

In my humble opinion, the Board have again made a decision ignoring the rules of our association quoted below:

 

16. Vacancies.

 

(i) For the purpose of this Rule, a vacancy in the office of a Member of the Board occurs if the Member-

 

(a) dies; or

 

(b) ceases to be a member of the association; or

 

© resigns from office; or

 

(d) is removed from office under rule 17; or

 

(e) becomes insolvent under administration within the meaning of the Corporations Act; or

 

(f) suffers from mental or physical incapacity; or

 

(g) is disqualified under the Act, section 63 (1); or

 

(h) is absent without the consent of the Board from all meetings of the Board held during a period of 12 Months

 

(ii) In the event of:-

 

a a vacancy occurring in the Board between group elections; or

 

b any vacancy occurring as a result of the failure to nominate sufficient Members of the Board to permit filling of the vacancy as specified in Rule 13 (iv), the Region entitled to elect a Member to such vacant position, shall elect a financial Member, subject to the provisions of Rule 16 (ii). That Member shall hold office from the date of their election until the beginning of the annual general meeting of the Association following the next group elections pertaining to that office.

 

(iii) If a vacancy occurs in the Board at time no greater than six months from the time of the next group election applicable to that Board position, the vacancy shall be deemed to be a casual vacancy and need not be filled in the interim period.

 

(iv) The Returning Officer shall advise all members of the result of any election held to fill a vacancy on the Board.