RAAus General Meeting Called

[frank marriott]

Will you be at the general meeting, Frank?Kaz

 

No - Townsville to Canberra too costly for me. My proxy will be though.

 

Frank

[terryc]

I dont think my fundamental belief in fairness and decency has gone out the window, a bit over the top with that statement... i have a different view than you,you cant see my point, fair enough, leave it at that.

I see your point very clearly. I object to your premise that put under a little bit of pressure that other raa members would be like you. I don't believe this is so and I certainly wouldn't. My comment of fairness and decency was not directed at you at all, your entitled to your opinion. I make this post only to clarify what I meant and not to enter into a debate.

 

Regards Terry

 

 

[Brian F]

I see your point very clearly. I object to your premise that put under a little bit of pressure that other raa members would be like you. I don't believe this is so and I certainly wouldn't. My comment of fairness and decency was not directed at you at all, your entitled to your opinion. I make this post only to clarify what I meant and not to enter into a debate.Regards Terry

My point is that all registrations should be dealt with as they fall due.

What the hell are you trying to say i am?

 

If your comment of fairness and decency wasn't directed at me, who was it directed at?

 

 

[cazza]

Brian, I understand your position and I don't disagree in the best of all worlds. A/c should be registered when they come due. But what happened is we were stopped from registering EVERYTHING and the registrations began to pile up and this went on for about a month. When the CASA man finally got there, can you imagine the mess? Where does one start? Staff didn't know what info was needed so each rego was examined, and info sent to people and there would have been piles of 1, ready to go when the CASA man looks at them, 2 needing more information, 3. Lost all their documentation, 4. Don't know what to do with these. In the midst of this (and I'm only surmising, but I bet its pretty close to the mark), we had, for example, Jabiru with 2 new a/c sitting on the lot for over a month, with employees being laid off just before Christmas, (possibly) what about their families? And I was told one of the Board members, said, "'tough". Let them wait in line. It just made me feel incredibly sad for their families. Under those circumstances, I would put them in front of me.

 

Cazza

 

 

[winsor68]

Since when has Ra-Aus been about supporting a Commercial Industry? I thought Ra-Aus was a members organization? IMO this focus on the "Commercial" side of things is a big part of what caused this problem.

 

 

[Brian F]

Brian, I understand your position and I don't disagree in the best of all worlds. A/c should be registered when they come due. But what happened is we were stopped from registering EVERYTHING and the registrations began to pile up and this went on for about a month. When the CASA man finally got there, can you imagine the mess? Where does one start? Staff didn't know what info was needed so each rego was examined, and info sent to people and there would have been piles of 1, ready to go when the CASA man looks at them, 2 needing more information, 3. Lost all their documentation, 4. Don't know what to do with these. In the midst of this (and I'm only surmising, but I bet its pretty close to the mark), we had, for example, Jabiru with 2 new a/c sitting on the lot for over a month, with employees being laid off just before Christmas, (possibly) what about their families? And I was told one of the Board members, said, "'tough". Let them wait in line. It just made me feel incredibly sad for their families. Under those circumstances, I would put them in front of me.Cazza

Cazza, I understand people have been put in bad situations over this, hopefully those that have caused this will be dealt with in the near future. I would hate to think that in the future raa would go down the path of preferential treatment for commercial interests at the cost of ordinary members who are the backbone

of this association.

 

Brian.

 

 

[Teckair]

Since when has Ra-Aus been about supporting a Commercial Industry? I thought Ra-Aus was a members organization? IMO this focus on the "Commercial" side of things is a big part of what caused this problem.

Yep too many different types for the Tech man to handle. But it is tough for people trying to put food on the table but then some of these same people have been pushing for LSA, heavier, faster and various things that make administration a heavier work load, maybe they did it to themselves? It would appear the board is not up to running what we now have.

 

 

[cazza]

Cazza, I understand people have been put in bad situations over this, hopefully those that have caused this will be dealt with in the near future. I would hate to think that in the future raa would go down the path of preferential treatment for commercial interests at the cost of ordinary members who are the backboneof this association.

Brian.

Brian, I really don't think that would happen in our organisation, if it was allowed to be a member oriented organisation like it started. The çommercial interests, are really what I would term as backyard industries. I haven't seen anyone get rich in recreational aviation. And Turboplanner, I don't think that was what Brian is about. That's the problem with this type of communication. YOu can't hear the voice, see the facial expressions and so you can misinterpret.

Cazza

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

So we go to canberra we hear about this hopefully 1 in 100 year event. I suggest that be the end of this question, i sincerely hope that the questions, answers and any proposals all work together to remove the chances of a reoccurrence in our lives....

 

to me there are many other more important issues to be passionately interested in than this one. As i said before we are all but done with the backlog according to raaus employees. If we can now keep CASA happy it will all be a historical question so instead of focusing on something that is hopefully mute, lets pick one of the others on the list that is still an unsolved issue and try and work that one through Rather than seemingly adopting a partisan position and refusing to move in any direction... Come on people real politics, the one where outcomes are required, needs compromise. Compromise means we all have to move around.

 

Andy

 

 

[rankamateur]

So we go to canberra we hear about this hopefully 1 in 100 year event. I suggest that be the end of this question, i sincerely hope that the questions, answers and any proposals all work together to remove the chances of a reoccurrence in our lives....to me there are many other more important issues to be passionately interested in than this one. As i said before we are all but done with the backlog according to raaus employees. If we can now keep CASA happy it will all be a historical question so instead of focusing on something that is hopefully mute, lets pick one of the others on the list that is still an unsolved issue and try and work that one through Rather than seemingly adopting a partisan position and refusing to move in any direction... Come on people real politics, the one where outcomes are required, needs compromise. Compromise means we all have to move around.

 

Andy

And that clear head is why I trusted you with my proxy, go sort them out Andy, but I still agree with Brian, every one should be able to expect their renewal to be processed by due date. Investment in a private aircraft for recreational use promises no financial return to the owner as a school plane does, so the the least the owner should be able to expect is to be able to enjoy the recreation of it in their own time frame, not some body elses.

 

 

[rankamateur]

Should privately owned, cross hired planes also be given priority registration? Even if the owner relies on the income from their hire?

 

 

[winsor68]

Yep too many different types for the Tech man to handle. But it is tough for people trying to put food on the table but then some of these same people have been pushing for LSA, heavier, faster and various things that make administration a heavier work load, maybe they did it to themselves? It would appear the board is not up to running what we now have.

EXACTLY!!!

 

 

[facthunter]

Here we go hunting BAD guys again. Stick together chaps. Nev

 

 

[Gentreau]

.......I would hate to think that in the future raa would go down the path of preferential treatment for commercial interests at the cost of ordinary members ....

I think what many people are trying to say here Brian is that it's important to differentiate between giving priority to a group now, while sorting out the chaotic situation which was the RAA registration process at the end of 2012, and the ongoing situation when things are back on track.

 

Those are two very different sets of circumstances, and so far I don't see anyone proposing that commercial interests should be given priority in the future.

 

.

 

 

[Pilot Pete]

Here we go hunting BAD guys again. Stick together chaps. Nev

 

 

[Brian F]

I think what many people are trying to say here Brian is that it's important to differentiate between giving priority to a group now, while sorting out the chaotic situation which was the RAA registration process at the end of 2012, and the ongoing situation when things are back on track.Those are two very different sets of circumstances, and so far I don't see anyone proposing that commercial interests should be given priority in the future.

 

.

Certainly hope that is the case Gentreau.

 

 

[cazza]

Those are two very different sets of circumstances, and so far I don't see anyone proposing that commercial interests should be given priority in the future.

 

That's how I see it.

 

Cazza

 

 

[dodo]

I wasin the office for a bit of the time, but don't pretend to know all the details.

 

What I did observe was:

 

-new rego's, being rather different from a renewal were handled separately. This is pretty much inevitable, but in practice meant if all was OK, they would get priority in effect. I don't think this was intended,but the side-effect that manufacturers/importers weren't unnecessarily delayed wasn't a bad thing. However, if there was a problem with the aircraft's rego, god only knows how long it would/will take!

 

- flying schools were contacted, but it is not that easy to determine a flying school aircraft. If the aircraft was known to be instructing, it got some priority because it would affect more people. I don't know if this was a deliberate policy. Many instructional aircraft don't belong to the school but are cross hired, so hard to know in any case. Because of the small number of airecraft with flying schools, I think it had an effect close to zero on delays for any others.

 

Basically, if RA can't register aircraft as they fall due, it doesn't really matter. The backlog so overwhelmed the process that it doesn't really matter. One example I can comment on is Slarti's aircraft (because I didn't follow any single case through, and Slarti has indicated dates of outcome). Slarti's aircraft was close to due or overdue when I saw it in mid-December, I doubt he messed around providing needed info, and it still took over a month after that. I don't know why,but my guess is that it went from a huge pile awaiting someone to read, through another huge pile awaiting info, through another huge pile awaiting the tech manager, through another pile awaiting the CASA consultant. It wasn't a case of first in, first out - it was "can I do something about this pile of work. Start on it and just keep plodding on".

 

In short, anyone who thinks this is a neat, tidy process where priorities are assigned doesn't understand. If God, the Minister or CASA rang, and told RA that CASA would shut RA down, and the world would end if your particular aircraft wasn't sorted, it would take hours simply to find your file (check pile A. No luck. Check pile B. No luck. Check Tech managers pile no luck. Check tech managers office. No luck. Ask around some more..find it back in the compactus because it has been approved and the letter sent yesterday).

 

I think Middo and the Tech manager were working 70-100 hour weeks. So was anyone else in the office who could usefully help - but you need specialist knowledge. If they took Christmas off, they deserved to.

 

To those suggesting prioritisation, or just working a few more hours, imagine an earthquake hits a town of a couple of thousand. 20 RFS blokes in three or four trucks. How do you prioritise? YOU DON'T - you just get stuck in, handle each urgent job as it comes, ignore the non-urgent. What else can you do? And you keep going, day after day, week after week.

 

Bluntly, get real. If it was easy, it would have been sorted out in a couple of weeks. Whatever I think of RA management and how we got into this mess, once you are in the shit, all you can do is work with what you have,

 

dodo

 

 

[djpacro]

To those suggesting prioritisation, ....., imagine ..... How do you prioritise? YOU DON'T - you just get stuck in, handle each urgent job as it comes, ignore the non-urgent. What else can you do?

What is urgent vs non-urgent?Be back after I check the dictionary for a definition of "prioritisation".

 

 

[coljones]

Yep too many different types for the Tech man to handle. But it is tough for people trying to put food on the table but then some of these same people have been pushing for LSA, heavier, faster and various things that make administration a heavier work load, maybe they did it to themselves? It would appear the board is not up to running what we now have.

I'm not sure where you are coming from Teckair but I would have thought that the rego protocol for say, a Foxbat A22, would be very similar for all Foxbat A22s. This would mean that a lot of the effort of registering the first A22 would be amortised over all A22s meaning the cost per A22 to RAA would be very much reduced compared with the costs to RAA for a one off owner designed, owner built aircraft where all off RAAs costs of registration would be sunk into a single example (rather than hundreds). Or am I missing something (sumfink)?

 

 

[Stearman]

Yep too many different types for the Tech man to handle. But it is tough for people trying to put food on the table but then some of these same people have been pushing for LSA, heavier, faster and various things that make administration a heavier work load, maybe they did it to themselves? It would appear the board is not up to running what we now have.

Do you really believe that agents / manufacturers brought LSA into existence? More likely CASA thought because the USA had it we should have it too. We were already almost there with our standard RAAus category. LSA has just added more complication & therefore confusion.

 

 

[turboplanner]

The critical point here is that board members rubber stamped it without taking it to the members for discussion.

 

In doing that they missed out on a lot of technical and administrative knowledge which may well have said "Don't go near this, the administrative complexities and costs make it a loser"

 

This meeting is one avenue to put an end to the type of Executive and board secrecy which caused what appears to be one of the blunders of the decade.

 

 

[frank marriott]

The critical point here is that board members rubber stamped it without taking it to the members for discussion.

A board it elected to administer/manage the show for 12 months. I guess the real problem is that it must be allowed to administer and plan direction - Each decision cannot be referred to the members for approval - That is akin to having a 10000 member board.

 

Yes feedback about decisions is necessary but direct involvement in decision making is limited to electing whoever is best suited to do that for you at the AGM for the next 12 months.

 

A prime example is the inability to reach agreement on individual matters here on the "sample" (however big or small that might be) of membership on this site.

 

Getting 10 individuals to agree is difficult enough on its own. I guess greater emphasis at pre-election stage is important .

 

The bottom line is that there will always be a percentage against just about every decision.

 

I am purposely staying away from those matters that may or may not be lawful - that is a matter of fact and law and not private opinion of members.

 

Frank

 

 

[turboplanner]

Frank, it's not a Company, with a Board of Directors.

 

The term Board adopted probably by some early egotists, has caused untold damage to RAA.

 

I agree getting 10,000 people to agree to something is not practical, but that's not what I'm saying.

 

Circulating a major change from routine operations, such as LSA, with it's potential to almost implode the Association should have been done, at the very least to let members know and react, and perhaps should have been a referendum.

 

Not all members get fired up enough to want to vote, but all members who think they are severely affected usually will.

 

 

[frank marriott]

TB

 

I hear ya.

 

I don't see the LSA " devil" but then I purchased one and to make matters worse I am also GA, yes I note that you are also. (Just a prime example of a statement to start another fight - which I am not interested in)

 

Further debate is probably a waste of time until after the GM results are known , weather positive or negative, and that in all probability be judged differently by different people as well.

 

Frank