RAAus General Meeting Called

[turboplanner]

Firstly there is no comparison whatsoever between what's been happening here and how CASA operates, and you'll find very little mention of any difficulties dealing with CASA in the many threads.

 

Secondly, if you go to the RAA site, you'll be able to read the RAA Constitution and By-Laws and see what the Feb 9 meeting can and cannot do. For example it can make decisions.

 

Thirdly there are more than 20 big threads for you to plough through before you would have a full understanding of the issues - thousands of posts. Not ideal for bringing you up to date, and forums are hopeless to sort out big issues, but if it wasn't for this forum and Ian, thousands of members would have been unaware that there were any serious issues, the first inkling possibly when the discovered they were grounded, or worse still, had an accident and found they were unregistered, and not covered by insurance.

 

Your reactions are perfectly reasonable for an Association which is operating normally, but...............

 

 

[cherk]

Firstly there is no comparison whatsoever between what's been happening here and how CASA operates, and you'll find very little mention of any difficulties dealing with CASA in the many threads.

"Your reactions are perfectly reasonable for an Association operating normally, but............."..

turbs , I think it IS operating 'normally'..........and that seems to be the problem! as it is ,it's dysfunctional !!

 

 

[kaz3g]

At post #186 A P Murray said:

 

6. As I am unable to travel to Canberra, I will provide a proxy to my board member to reflect the above, i.e., an overiding motion that all other motions involving constitutional or structural change get put to the full membership.

 

I would hasten to assure you that constitutional change can only occur by way of "special resolutions" put to a GM or AGM with a minimum of 21 days notice of the specific motion. That won't occur on 9 February.

 

But there may be motions expressing the great disquiet that many of us feel about the ongoing failures of gover nance and administration evidenced by the many issues highlighted in posts on this thread and others. Some people may resign as a consequence.

 

If I were part of the Executive, I would regard it as the honourable thing to do.

 

kaz

 

 

[turboplanner]

turbs , I think it IS operating 'normally'..........and that seems to be the problem! as it is ,it's dysfunctional !!

Thanks, I've edited the post.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Greetings all. I'm relatively new to RA-Aus from GA (about a year and a half now) and have been quietly observing the dynamics. Also did a bit of research into the background of some of the thorny issues. For what it is worth, I'd like to share these thoughts:......

5. Given the uncertainty and the evident hostility (I make no judgement as to whether it is justified but it does inevitably leads to a narrowing of agenda), I want ANY major decisions taken at that meeting to come into effect only after ratification by vote of the full membership. By all means, fearlessly, persistently and with a courteous and respectful manner seek information but - no major actions please until that information is out there and seen by the full membership.

 

......

To add to the reply that Turbo presented the Constitution defines what can and cant happen at a meeting and it has no requirement that a motion (any or all?) must be voted on by the entire membership. If you think thats wrong then the constitution needs to be updated by its defined update process, which cannot occur in the time available.

 

A motion put at the meeting that "no motions be put at the meeting" must by its nature be seen to be circular logic and surely above RAAus members!!!!......and in any event unconstitutional!!

 

Fortunately the constitution invites all and/or their proxys to the meeting so what exactly is it that missing from those options? Your post if I read between the lines has you believing the stuff being spread about us "Troublemakers, and silly members!" perhaps it was even suggested to you that it was us that created the whole grounding mess!! or perhaps there were some transient historic board members who are saying "all is not well!!!' that were there for a few months before they had to leave as a result of the nonfunctioning board and they are to blame for the mess rather than the board members who have been there for years!!! If you believe that tripe that I suspect is in the email from your board member then perhaps you'd like to buy a bridge I happen to have for sale............

 

Anyway, instead of making no judgement on the hostility (or perhaps more accurately the majority of considered posts mainly without hostility!) you might read the various threads and vote on the issues at the meeting with knowledge and not just as your board member suggests you vote, after all its your decision not his!

 

Talking of circular logic reminded me of an old Project manager who pointed out to me that we earn leave for every day at work and that a leave day still counted as a day at work therefore if while on leave you put in a leave request for the time accrued while on leave you may never need to return to work....but could be somewhat busy filling in asymptotic leave applications for durations approaching zero time but never quite there........ I was reminded of that because today was the 1st day back at work after the Christmas break....

 

Andy

 

P.S for those that dont know ask someone from WA about the email that was sent around that state by the Rep.....if nothing supports our claims that "all is not at all well" the content of that email should surely raise eyebrows!!

 

 

[turboplanner]

Can anyone say who the board member was who sent that email, or is that a secret?

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

I'll post what I saw, but suggest it holds more weight coming from someone who got it first hand than through me:-

 

I cant vouch for its veracity and make no claims above what anyone can claim for a a puported 3rd hand email........before you believe it do your own checking. If it is true howver then I just scratch my head!

 

The bold underline bit was my bold underline...the bold only bit was the original authors bolding

 

From: Gavin Thobaven (Andys@coffs removed the email address to protect Gavin from spam PM me if you want the full unedited Text)

 

Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2013 8:36 PM

 

To: Gavin Thobaven

 

Subject: From Gavin Thobaven WA RAA rep

 

Importance: High

 

Dear member

 

I have attempted to send out a message to all WA members but I fear that my email server has let me down somewhat. As a result I am asking if you could forward this request to any RAA members with whom you have contact.

 

I need to get a message out as far and wide among our members in WA as possible to make sure that WA is well represented at the upcoming General Meeting of the association.

 

I will be very direct with this when I tell you that if you are not previously aware a certain small group of members have undertaken a campaign of misinformation and tactics to undermine the board of the association. The association is currently going through a bit of pain partly because of unprecedented audits from CASA and partly because of serious deficiencies that have been detected, both by the audits and by separate inquiry by the board. Many of the deficiencies resulted from mismanagement by earlier board members many of whom are in the current group of detractors.

 

The situation is that the detractors are collecting proxy votes from members without providing those members with the motions that their proxy will be used to pass. This potentially gives this small group absolute power to do as they wish with your association.

 

As a result of a request from a number of members here in WA I submitted that all motions to be presented to the meeting should be presented to the full membership to allow them to be involved in the process. This request was supported by members in remote Queensland. Unfortunately a certain member of the board took that request and misrepresented it on a flying forum as an attempt to gag the meeting, which it clearly was not. The result of that is that the request looks like failing.

 

I would not presume to ask for a blank cheque proxy from members as I believe that you have a right to be aware of what you are voting for. I know that the detractors will have a large number of blank cheque proxies but my conscience prevents me from requesting such a thing from members.

 

I am asking for your assistance to get a request out to all members that we can. I am trying to compile proxy votes to support a motion: “That only motions that have been presented to the full membership can be voted on at the meeting of 9th February 2013”.

 

This is absolutely not an attempt to stop debate but it is an attempt to provide all members with a right to full and proper representation in the governance of their association.

 

I have attempted to represent members of this state and have worked to achieving recognition and support for our activities from the national body. The role of board member is actually the role of representative for the state. I can only represent if the membership is able to provide the direction for me to work.

 

I hope I can count on your assistance in this.

 

Gavin Thobaven

 

 

[Guest airsick]

I am asking for your assistance to get a request out to all members that we can. I am trying to compile proxy votes to support a motion: “That only motions that have been presented to the full membership can be voted on at the meeting of 9th February 2013”.

So essentially this board member is asking a select group of members (WA) to empower him with the ability to deny the remainder of the membership their rights. Yep, that's the sort of guy I want on the board - one that uses flawed logic, deceit and deception to get his way.

 

Nice one Gavin. Call those who request a general meeting a bunch of detractors and then try to deny them the ability to hold you to account. Sounds like you have something to hide...

 

 

[Thirsty]

Exactly and if he were serious why not point all the WA members to this website so they can hear (read?) both sides of the argument and make a balanced assessment? He's just as bad as the supposed detractors he's complaining about!

 

 

[Aerochute Kev]

Interesting..... I know Gavin has my e-mail address as I had dialogue with him voicing my displeasure at the grounding and audit failure early in this saga. Alas, I did not receive this e-mail so can only assume it was part of the server problem he mentions as I am sure Gavin would not have only sent this out to those he thought would support him in this matter....

 

I find it surprising that instead of using his efforts trying to inform members on exactly what is happening, why and what they are doing about it, he is asking members to support a Board and Executive that have allowed the RAAus to fall into such a shambles without any explanation other than to blame CASA for the "unprecedented audit" failures.

 

Perhaps if he had said "The board is stepping down and an administrator will take over the running of the organisation until all is sorted, planes are all back in the air and people responsible for this situation are held to account" he might have had some chance of being taken as seriously working for the benefit of the members.

 

I am afraid any Board member will have to do better than that e-mail to get my support.

 

 

[AlfaRomeo]

I have attempted to send out a message to all WA members . . .

How does the WA member get a list of RA-Aus members private email addresses so that he can send out his clearly political propaganda email? This is surely a breach of Privacy? There is a clear RA policy that forbids such an action precisely because many, if not most members, have specifically denied that use of their email address.

 

. . . a certain small group of members have undertaken a campaign of misinformation and tactics to undermine the board of the association.

Gavin - have the guts to get on here and name names and state facts. Name one single piece of misinformation! You can't because there have been NONE! This is a deliberate attack on the democratic, constitutional processes that have been invoked by 300+ independent thinkers. How can you call that a small group of members? It's close to four times the number of members who put you on the Board with a majority of just one vote.

 

The association is currently going through a bit of pain . . .

That's one way to describe RA-Aus reaching the lowest point in its entire history with hundreds of member's unable to fly airworthy aircraft because the RA-Aus Board did not take CASA seriously not once, not twice, not three times but four times. Is it true Gavin that RA-Aus actually failed one audit four times? The original audit and three follow ups?

 

. . . unprecedented audits from CASA

The first audit may have been unprecedented but it was forewarned months ahead of it being done. And the second, third and fourth audits were preceded by guess what? The first audit!

 

Many of the deficiencies resulted from mismanagement by earlier board members

You mean Middo, Eugene Reid, Myles Breitkreutz, Dave Caban, Steve Runciman, Rod Birrell, John Mckeown? Have your fellow Board Members all thanked you for this slur?

 

. . . many of whom are in the current group of detractors.

But who were not on the Board for the 2nd third or fourth audit failures. And you were on the Board for all four audit failures. Were you too busy to worry about CASA Audits?

 

. . . I submitted that all motions to be presented to the meeting should be presented to the full membership to allow them to be involved in the process.

Gavin, try reading the Constitution one day before you leave the Board. It is not that hard and it is written in plain English. If you want to change the Constitution, do what all other members have to do - put a motion for a Special Resolution with 21 days notice to a GM or AGM and achieve a 75% majority. Have a go and see how easy that is to achieve - it's a bit more difficult than changing the rules on the fly with no forethought.

 

I would not presume to ask for a blank cheque proxy from members as I believe that you have a right to be aware of what you are voting for.

The Constitution was amended as recently as at the last AGM, just a few months ago, by a majority vote of 75% to allow exactly that. Every member of RA-Aus had the opportunity to vote on that motion that was given much more than 21 days advance notice. But now you seem to want to change the Constitution without notice and by a handful of your chums.

 

This is absolutely not an attempt to stop debate but it is an attempt to provide all members with a right to full and proper representation in the governance of their association.

Deny all you like that you are not trying to gag the meeting but if you have a meeting and no motions may be presented or voted on it starts to sound very much like a "Claytons Meeting" - the meeting you have when you do not want anything to be done. You seem to me to be desperately trying to prevent the Board being held to account for any of its numerous governance and management failures. If you had nothing to fear you would want open discussion and full accountability.

 

I have attempted to represent members of this state and have worked to achieving recognition and support for our activities from the national body. The role of board member is actually the role of representative for the state.

Sorry Gavin, but that is not correct. Read the Constitution and the Board's own By-Laws (No. 10 para 1) and you will find that you are required to:

"Represent the Members of the RA-Aus as a whole and the Members of the Region specifically" (my emphasis).

 

All in all, this appeal from Gavin comes across to me as an attempt to denigrate members who have serious questions to ask of a Board that has racked up a succession of management and governance failures that have brought RA-Aus to its knees and left a sizeable number of its members unable to fly. As has been shown above, it also appears to be an attempt to circumvent the Rules in the Constitution whose ink has hardly had time to dry.

 

Gavin, if you understood the contents of this post, you should immediately issue a retraction of that letter that is deeply offensive to RA-Aus members who have every right and reason to be gravely concerned about the state of RA-Aus affairs.

 

 

[Captain]

Furthermore, if the email in Andy's post #193 is fair-dinkum, based on the points that AR has outlined, being the incorrect nature of many of GT's statements to WA members, one can only conclude that any proxies that Gavin Thobaven brings to the Feb 9th meeting will have been obtained based on false representations.

 

And how did you obtain that list of member's email addresses, Gav?

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Surely Gavin fails the competency test for a board member.

 

 

[Aerochute Kev]

Furthermore, if the email in David's post #193 is fair-dinkum, based on the points that AR has outlined, being the incorrect nature of many of GT's statements to WA members, one can only conclude that any proxies that Gavin Thobaven brings to the Feb 9th meeting will have been obtained based on false representations.And how did you obtain that list of member's email addresses, Gav?

I believe they were obtained by contact with members as they are not available from RAAus.

 

 

[pudestcon]

I believe they were obtained by contact with members as they are not available from RAAus.

That's my understanding as well Kev. I gave Gavin my email address and have received a number of emails from him - didn't receive this one though.

Pud

 

 

[turboplanner]

Looks like the Privacy Act has been contravened to me and that's a Penalty issue, no need for a meeting there.

 

Also, if that email is genuine, members are being asked to breach the Constitution.

 

In addition to that, if that email is genuine, he has misled the members and if he's got the guts resign.

 

This pathetic, desperate attempt at maintaining secrecy at all costs only adds to the impression that something very big is being hidden.

 

 

[Captain]

I believe they were obtained by contact with members as they are not available from RAAus.

Kev,

 

If that is the case, and all of Gav's email list were willing members who had provided him with their email addresses, then no worries.

 

But that is not what the email says.

 

The email text in post #193 says QUOTE "I have attempted to send out a message to all WA members but I fear that my email server has let me down somewhat. As a result I am asking if you could forward this request to any RAA members with whom you have contact. UNQUOTE. (The bolded items are by me for emphasis).

 

If that is indeed the case & Gav really has a list of email addresses for all WA members, then the server is possibly the only item that has acted appropriately.

 

But can't you see a slight distortion when a General Meeting requisitioned by over 300 members, after a series of serious & proven management and governance failures, is described by a Board Member as "a bit of pain" and just a few stirrers with personal agendas. Misrepresentation comes to mind for me.

 

Regards Geoff

 

 

[David Isaac]

Actually Andy posted it Cap'n.

 

But as a point of interest I actually received that email, it was forwarded to me direct, so there is no doubt as to its authenticity.

 

 

[Captain]

Actually Andy posted it Cap'n.But as a point of interest I actually received that email, it was forwarded to me direct, so there is no doubt as to its authenticity.

Apologies David. I have corrected that in both ...... and thanks for the confirmation of authenticity.

 

 

[turboplanner]

If that's the case, then a Member who has received an email, and hadn't given him their address needs to have him investigated and charged under the Privacy Act, which is quite strong.

 

That might send a message through

 

 

[Guest airsick]

The association is currently going through a bit of pain partly because of unprecedented audits from CASA and partly because of serious deficiencies that have been detected, both by the audits and by separate inquiry by the board. Many of the deficiencies resulted from mismanagement by earlier board members many of whom are in the current group of detractors.

I have just spoken to someone in the CASA Sport Aviation Office and they have informed me that there was only one audit. The other "audits" were not audits but were follow ups on the first one to see if the non-conformances had been fixed. On the third follow up they decided that the lack of action to fix the non-conformances was enough to justify the removal of RA-Aus' authority to register aircraft.

 

At no point has there been an "unprecedented" level of auditing. The audits are conducted the same as any other year and RA-Aus had plenty of notice. To state that this is unprecedented is misleading at best and down right deceptive at worst.

 

So who want's to help Gavin and others on the board keep misleading the membership?

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Demonizing CASA was the easy way out... Its hard to come up with a good new excuse when the old one has worked so well for the last few years. If I was president I would complain about CASA intrusive presence making my job untenable and not knowing how I can cope with the stress. I would be strong and resist my treasurers persistent demands for me to take a long overseas vacation at the RAAs expense. Things would be very different if I was President...

 

 

[Captain]

I have just spoken to someone in the CASA Sport Aviation Office and they have informed me that there was only one audit. The other "audits" were not audits but were follow ups on the first one to see if the non-conformances had been fixed. On the third follow up they decided that the lack of action to fix the non-conformances was enough to justify the removal of RA-Aus' authority to register aircraft.At no point has there been an "unprecedented" level of auditing. The audits are conducted the same as any other year and RA-Aus had plenty of notice. To state that this is unprecedented is misleading at best and down right deceptive at worst.

 

So who want's to help Gavin and others on the board keep misleading the membership?

Sickie,

 

Further, I understand that in the last or 2nd last audit, CASA just concentrated on what had been done by RAA over the preceding month ................ and they still failed, after CASA had previously given them specific details on what the issues were and what RAA had to do to set it right. No wonder the Exec won't release details on the Audit failures to the membership. After all it is just a "bit of pain".

 

The Technical Manager was responsible to the Executive and the Executive were responsible full stop. The Exec. can't now throw the Techman under the bus and wash their hands of these issues.

 

From the details & background that I know, and given that the members of the Executive have been on the Exec for years, if his comments relate to the audits, Gavin's Thobaven's statements to WA members appear to be very misleading, or an attempt to whitewash the issues. Neither is part of his charter as a Board Member.

 

But we'll see what he has to say on the big stage on Feb 9th to the membership at large.

 

Regards Geoff

 

 

[Tiger]

I cannot understand various statements by board members on membership numbers. At the AGM it was stated we had over 13,000 members, for the job application it was 12,000 then another board member quotes 11,000 in the December Sport Pilot. Now we see it posted on the RAA website, at a request of a member, as some 9200. Who do we believe? How can we believe anything this Board Executive tell us!.

 

Now to see what the West Australian board member has sent out to members or posted on this site is grossly misleading. Great reply alfaromeo, you hit the nail on the head with your responses to Gavin. This current outburst by Gavin is a great indicator for us members to be able to judge who we do not want on the board. This is a very narrow, one sided and unprofessional viewpoint that has been carried out in breach of the constitution. How can we put up any longer with board members like this. As has been said, if he has the guts, resign, as we will then be able to go forward again.

 

The statement by the Secretary that accompanied the meeting request by members was nothing short of condescending to the applicants and a breach of the Secretary’s impartial position. It gave a very biased outlook for members against those ( I understand over 300 not the few as has been mentioned) who had requested the meeting and to prejudge the outcome. The failure to supply to members a full audit report is another failure by the Board Executive and is another breach of the Act. How many breaches of acts, constitutional matters, board policy, guidelines, etc must us members suffer before we make a stand and say enough is enough.

 

Read what the CASA Sport Aviation Self Administration Handbook 2010 says for board action, responsibility, communication, information to members, etc. Once you read this you will realise that the RAA Executive / Board has not been complying with most CASA guideline equirements for quite some time and this is where RAA has ended up. In essence a total lack of governance and lack of risk management, even after it had been told to them by CASA with the 2011 Audit.

 

We mustn't forget our office staff at this time - their actions to the membership has been exceptional during a very trying time. My congratulations to all the front line office employees. You are always very understanding and courteous to the members.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

13,000 ppl joined the RAA since it started

 

12,000 get the magazine

 

11,000 pay for their licence

 

9,200 have documentation