Is a CPL needed here?

[ExJourno]

I've accepted a new job... The company i'm starting at owns a Cirrus SR22 and a third share in a Cessna 182. The company is not an aviation business.

 

Part of my role will require trips that these planes will make much more efficient.

 

My question, ignoring endorsements... To take one myself I am assuming a PPL is all I need... However, if myself and one or two others decide to go together, is this the point I'd need a CPL?

 

For clarity, flying in this situation is operationally no different to being the driver if we took a car (as far as the business is concerned). I'm not paid to fly, but I'd fly to wherever I (and others) needed to be.

 

I've googled and searched and googled some more and am still unsure.

 

Anyone know where the PPL vs CPL line is drawn in such situations?

 

 

[kaz3g]

Have a look at the definition of business flying...that sounds like what you are doing and a PPL is sufficient provided you are not employed to fly the aircraft or otherwise flying for gain or reward.

 

Be careful of taking goods for delivery with you... Could put you over the line.

 

http://www.casa.gov.au/scripts/nc.dll?WCMS:STANDARD::pc=PC_90021

 

Kaz

 

 

[rgmwa]

If the company is making money (or saving money - amounts to the same thing), by having you fly the plane for them, I think it could be seen as a commercial activity. If it was just a matter of getting you to a job site, it's probably OK, as Kaz said. Probably best for you or the company to get official some advice from CASA just to be sure.

 

rgmwa

 

 

[ExJourno]

Thanks for that Kaz... That I didn't find that suggests my google Kung fu is slipping!

 

Business flying does most certainly seem to cover it. The items we'd deliver to clients most certainly wouldn't fit in either of those planes.

 

PPL will need to happen ASAP.

 

 

[ExJourno]

If the company is making money (or saving money - amounts to the same thing), by having you fly the plane for them, I think it could be seen as a commercial activity. If it was just a matter of getting you to a job site, it's probably OK, as Kaz said. Probably best for you or the company to get official some advice from CASA just to be sure.rgmwa

It is just getting me to meetings and site/client visits.

 

I was going to call CaSA in the morning, but learning about the Cirrus got me excited and I couldn't wait... I wanted at least a tentative answer.... And I'd say I got it.

 

Will confirm though.

 

 

[rgmwa]

Forgot to add - "sounds like a great job!"

 

rgmwa

 

 

[ExJourno]

Forgot to add - "sounds like a great job!" rgmwa

Yeah... I got lucky.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Call CASA.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

And get the answer in writing..;)

 

 

[Sapphire]

I did glider towing for the commercial side of a gliding club on a PPL. Didn't get paid in cash but compensated other ways. Call CASA and remember the name of the person you talked. If you don't like what he said, contact someone else untill they sing the right song. Did that many times in other circumstances.

 

 

[ExJourno]

Haha... I'm sure they'll direct me to an easy to decipher, iron clad, unambiguous document on their website...

 

 

[ahlocks]

Regulation 2 - Interpretation,

 

7. For the purposes of these regulations:

 

(....snip)

 

(d) an aircraft that is flying or operating for the purpose of, or in the course of:

 

(....snip)

 

(v) the carriage of persons or the carriage of goods without a charge for the carriage being made other than the carriage, for the purposes of trade, of goods being the property of the pilot, the owner or the hirer of the aircraft;

 

(snip...)

 

shall be taken to be employed in private operations.

 

If you can get esteemed regulator to define exactly what 'for the purposes of trade' actually means in this clause you will have your answer of if you can do it on a PPL. Good luck!

 

 

[kaz3g]

It is just getting me to meetings and site/client visits. I was going to call CaSA in the morning, but learning about the Cirrus got me excited and I couldn't wait... I wanted at least a tentative answer.... And I'd say I got it.

 

Will confirm though.

Beautiful aeroplane but not one for beginners. Make sure you get plenty of duel time before heading off alone.

 

Good luck

 

Kaz

 

 

[metalman]

Personally , I wouldn't bother asking the question , unless someone is shoving cash in your pocket I'd just fly the planes and enjoy the job, but that's just me ;-)

 

Cheers Met

 

 

[ayavner]

in any case, sounds like a great opportunity to add hours and experience that you can parley into a CPL down the road when you're ready, and potentially open yourself to even more cool opportunities!

 

 

[68volksy]

Go do your PPL and pass your PPL theory test and you'll be good. One of the questions in the sample exams was this exact question!

 

From memory employees flying an aircraft with other employees as passengers is fine and dandy so long as the pilot is not walking away with any cash in their hand.

 

Biggest question i'd be confirming is the insurance coverage of the aircraft...

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Nope. Garruntee, I you auger in, and it's related at all to work, victims fams will be suieing people left right and center... Trust me, im right in the middle of this exact scenario right now. (As a witness)

 

 

[Guest Lofty1]

You're all good, I've been doing that legally for years. I have 100 or so hours between the 20 and the 22, a very nice machine. The 22 is a real 4/5 seater.

 

Even if you did have a CPL you don't have an AOC so there's not much point.

 

Cficare do you have a reference for your blanket NO comment ?

 

 

[poteroo]

No - you are certainly able and legal. However,if you are flying other company people to a business meeting, but you are not actually engaged in this meeting - then you are flying the aircraft essentially as the 'company pilot' .....and this is where it begins to go into the grey zone.

 

You'll get any number of different answers from CASA. CASA always assume that any 'hypothetical' question is, in fact, a real life job, and you could well go onto the 'watch' list.

 

happy days,

 

 

[Hongie]

any more positions going?! :P

 

I too have wondered this..

 

My job as a Fitter/mechanic would be benefited by my having a plane to transport myself to remote locations to work.

 

 

[Ryanm]

An aircraft owned by a company, flying company employees is considered a private operation. But the moment someone steps on who has paid for a seat, then it becomes a commercial one.

 

Many companies operate aircraft privately, and when not required, often fly charters.

 

 

[facthunter]

If you could do it in a car but choose to do the same function in an aeroplane. ie You are not paid and the passengers are not charged and you don't transport goods other than your own property and there is no charge applying to the delivery of the goods. That would not require a CPL. ( in my understanding) I can recall I never did any joy flights or took anyone anywhere who paid the aero club for the plane unless I had a CPL. Whether I got paid was immaterial. I didn't many times

 

Kaz, what's "Duel" time.. Them's fighting words. Dual means two. I would rather challenge you to a dual than a duel, because I'm a man of peace. Nev

 

 

[Ryanm]

You can be employed by someone as their company pilot without it being a commercial operation. So long as you are only flying company employees and not fare paying passengers (or freight).

 

 

[frank marriott]

Ryanm

 

Are you positive? My understand of the position is that a PPL can fly a company aircraft so long as he/she is not employed as a pilot (I.e. not his/her primary duty. Otherwise although it may be a 'private operation' but the pilot still needs a CPL (flying for hire/reward.)

 

I note your words were private operation (no need for an AOC) and I agree with that part but to be employed as the company pilot (my understanding of Cpl min). The good thing is that it is not me but CASA that has to agree.

 

 

[moz]

I concur with Facthunter and ryanm - in that it seems to be a private operation. Being employed as a pilot does not necessarily in itself require a CPL. The requirement is based on what type of operation you are conducting...

 

(CPL also)