Working Party for 2nd Organisation

[Guernsey]

No need to change or replace the RaaUs ship, just change some of the crew.

 

Alan.

 

 

[Deskpilot]

Reading this and the other threads on the RA.Aus problem just goes to show why the G.A. fraternity in general, looks down it's collective nose at us. If you're dead set on changing things at the top, find a way to contact ALL RA.Aus members and make them vote the present encumberants out/or not. I'm sure that the majority of members ie, those not visiting this site, have little or no knowledge of what's going on. There are enough of us members here to voice our opinions to the board and force the them into action before we start thinking of reinventing the wheel. Pity we can't get hold of all membership details to by-pass the board all together but there you go.

 

Is it possible to go over the Board's head and appeal to CASSA? A case of No Confidence for example. They (CASSA) must be aware of our plight. It's not as if we're hanging out any more dirty washing, is it?

 

 

[turboplanner]

Recreational Aviation Australia Inc. is owned by the members; CASA don't own it and would be taking risks if they engaged in the way you are suggesting.

 

The first priority is to get the CASA audit failures corrected.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

So another issue I thought of was being able to transfer registrations from RAA to RFA whilst maintaining the same rego number. Would make it easy to transfer regististrations

 

 

[Guest airsick]

Pity we can't get hold of all membership details to by-pass the board all together but there you go.

You can. The board will tell you that you can't due to privacy laws and so on but once again they are not aware of their obligations. The Associations Incorporation Act says that the members register must be kept and be made available to members on request.

 

Simply request it...

 

 

[turboplanner]

Good point airsick - the members own it.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Its true that the act does indeed identify that a member register is to be made available, but unless I missed it, it doesnt define what exactly would be stored in a member register, it could simply be a list on names, nothing else. or it could have useful info like a postal address or a telephone number......Knowing our bunch and their penchant for complying with their obligations you are likely to get a response taht says something along the lines " We will provide that to you just as soon as we can given the current crisis......." expect it around Feb...next year

 

Andy

 

 

[Guest airsick]

Its true that the act does indeed identify that a member register is to be made available, but unless I missed it, it doesnt define what exactly would be stored in a member register, it could simply be a list on names, nothing else. or it could have useful info like a postal address or a telephone number......Knowing our bunch and their penchant for complying with their obligations you are likely to get a response taht says something along the lines " We will provide that to you just as soon as we can given the current crisis......." expect it around Feb...next yearAndy

Yep, it does define what is to be stored in there. Part of that is name and address of each member as well as when each member joined the association or ceased to be a member (in other words, the register has to include every member, past and present, since day one).

 

Furthermore, the member register must be made available to members. This means that any information in addition to the prescribed particulars (phone numbers, email addresses, etc.) must also be made available if they are part of the register. That is, if RA-Aus has a member register and in that register they choose to keep particulars over and above the requirements of the law then this information, as part of the register, must be made available to members.

 

It also stipulates at a reasonable time. They should be able to produce this document with a few hours notice so if you ask for it and they tell you not until after February or something equally outlandish they have just broken yet another law.

 

 

[ave8rr]

Yep, it does define what is to be stored in there. Part of that is name and address of each member as well as when each member joined the association or ceased to be a member (in other words, the register has to include every member, past and present, since day one).Furthermore, the member register must be made available to members. This means that any information in addition to the prescribed particulars (phone numbers, email addresses, etc.) must also be made available if they are part of the register. That is, if RA-Aus has a member register and in that register they choose to keep particulars over and above the requirements of the law then this information, as part of the register, must be made available to members.

 

It also stipulates at a reasonable time. They should be able to produce this document with a few hours notice so if you ask for it and they tell you not until after February or something equally outlandish they have just broken yet another law.

I know Gavin (WA) rep emails out to all of us over here in the west. A number emails were received regarding Westfly. He has been quiet with emails though re the current issues although has at least posted on this site....

Cheers

 

 

[facthunter]

With airsick's reference to member's list being available to members I don't think he means to ALL member's. I hope he is referring to each member being able to see his own FILE. This would seem reasonable because there may well be notes and comments written there which would be questioned rightly. If there are such comments they should only be there if they would be acceptable to the individual member Nev

 

 

[turboplanner]

There should not be any comments on the master list FH only the bare details, and these are only available to RAA members - part of the same group, so the data would be to the level that would be shared in any open discussion of the group.

 

 

[Ausmo]

No need to change or replace the RaaUs ship, just change some of the crew.Alan.

The man has a point. It's not rocket science. What we need is:

 

1. Competent governance (the Board) employing
    
    
   
2. Competent management (the General Manger)
    
    
   

 

 

Both of whom recognise they are accountable to the membership for what they do. This will require high level communication.

 

I reckon the Board needs good quality Governance Training URGENTLY!

 

Erik

 

 

[turboplanner]

That's been the problem Ausmo, they've based their tenure on governance, not representation which is why the employee structure has not been adapted to changes and issues, and critical issues like whether or not RAA went ahead with LSA were not decided by the members who may or may not have backed away from such a mess.

 

We have a board of management, not a board of directors (in which case, yes they would be making governance policies for a large paid management structure to carry out.)

 

 

[BPN]

With airsick's reference to member's list being available to members I don't think he means to ALL member's. I hope he is referring to each member being able to see his own FILE. This would seem reasonable because there may well be notes and comments written there which would be questioned rightly. If there are such comments they should only be there if they would be acceptable to the individual member Nev

FH , The electoral roll is a public doc. Available to all and sundry. Basic info ,name ,address ,occupation. Why should RAAus be any different , providing all other

 

notes and comments are deleted.?

 

 

[Ausmo]

........ We have a board of management, not a board of directors (in which case, yes they would be making governance policies for a large paid management structure to carry out.)

My point is that the current arrangement has failed the members and not only because of the deficits in those involved. This organisation is too big and the task too demanding for a footy club style mangement committee. These people likely have a very clear idea of what the members want, but they are not professional managers so they struggle to deliver it. Better they focussed on setting the agenda, hiring the best General Manager they can find, telling him/her what they want, hold them accountable and get rid of them if if they don't deliver.

 

Erik

 

 

[turboplanner]

This Association could employ a thousand employees if that was necessary.

 

 

[forexjohnny]

If I might offer an observation. I have read some of what has been going on at the RAA on this site, or at least what has supposedly been going on. As a forced member of this organisation I have no more interest in this organisation than I do in the RTA when I go to renew my drivers and vehicle licence. I would classify myself as one of those that only wants to fly and is not interested in any “politics” of the industry. “But we need this politics and should be actively participating in it to secure our future rights to fly” I here time and again. “BULL” is what I say. Someone on this thread mentioned the FAR103 reg’s the Americans have which basically means the onus is on the pilot to make sure everything including training is of an acceptable standard and thus avoiding all regulation and memberships other than compliance with the regulations restrictions. Calling an aircraft a “recreational vehicle” until it weighs over 254lbs and holds more than 5 gallons of fuel is only a bureaucratic line drawn in the sand because believe me you still need the same skill set to fly it. Sure we are not in America so must abide by our country’s regulations hence my membership to RAA. Do you think my aircraft or I looses our physical ability to fly just because I do not have a piece of paper that says we can. As with most things in life a balanced approach is what is required so checks and balances are a good thing. Unfortunately when people are involved then balance is elusive. What may be balanced for me may not be so for you.

 

For me, I follow this site because I have learnt to find information from any source and then use it to my advantage. Forewarned is forearmed. I see most here fly aircraft that are more closely related to GA aircraft than the original rag and tube ultralights. That is fine, I love most forms of flight but do not feel much comradery from this site when I am told “ I have know idea why anyone would want to fly below 1000ft”. I do not care what you think of what I fly as I am sure you feel the same when some GA pilot says the same of you. IF there was to be a split from the RAA then to me the only interest I would show is if that split developed a group that encompassed and comprised mostly of the low and slow originals of which I feel I have something in common. I would become involved, not for but despite the politics.

 

John

 

 

[geoffreywh]

Congratulations! How nicely written. I bet anything you like your views reflect those of most of the RAA members. Personally I get fed up being called " apathetic" because I don't vote. I would vote, But for whom to vote? Which party are they? Will they reflect my views of "What I want in RAA management?" ................I am of the previous poster's ilk....Thanks.

 

 

[pudestcon]

Yep there is more than a few out here with the same view as forexjohnny.

 

Pud

 

 

[Pete Greed]

Erik: "My point is that the current arrangement has failed the members and not only because of the deficits in those involved. This organisation is too big and the task too demanding for a footy club style mangement committee. These people likely have a very clear idea of what the members want, but they are not professional managers so they struggle to deliver it. Better they focussed on setting the agenda, hiring the best General Manager they can find, telling him/her what they want, hold them accountable and get rid of them if if they don't deliver".

 

Pretty well sums it up Erik

 

Pete

 

 

[winsor68]

I personally think the "second" organisation should be the old one revamped. After all when you strip down the old version and determine whats wrong and replace the bits that are buggered, or have worn out, the results can be as good as new. And you know what, it can be done in the same way many of us maintain our own aircraft - having basic mechanical training and call in the specialist for the bits that are too technical.The membership base will remain the same, the contract with CASA as well. Just need to bring the operation up to best practice in keeping with the size and scope of what is a growing community business.

Pete

I agree. Spot on Pete.

 

Let the new organization administer Commercial Ops.

 

 

[503]

Thanks forexjhonny. 100%

 

 

[Powerin]

Any putative new organisation, for a start, is going to need staff to handle rego, licencing and administration.....

 

1. Do you have the funding to be able to recruit and pay staff for the initial set up period, before the income starts trickling in (if it does)?
    
    
   
2. Do you have, or can you hire people with, sufficient expertise to manage and train your new staff?
    
    
   
3. Do you have the expertise to understand and comply with the aviation laws?
    
    
   
4. Can you recruit staff with expertise to oversee and audit instructor training, instructors and the schools they run?
    
    
   
5. Do you have the expertise, or can you hire it, to write the necessary documentation to run your organisation (tech manuals etc.)?
    
    
   

 

 

And that's just for starters.

 

 

[dazza 38]

I am only a member of RAA because I have to be as well. Who knows what the fee is going to be in the future per member, to pay for all the cluster farks we are faced with ATM. I wouldnt mine if the $187 bucks was well spent but from what I can gather.It has been missed managed and possibly used fraudulently.

 

 

[dazza 38]

Any putative new organisation, for a start, is going to need staff to handle rego, licencing and administration.....

1. Do you have the funding to be able to recruit and pay staff for the initial set up period, before the income starts trickling in (if it does)?
    
    
   
2. Do you have, or can you hire people with, sufficient expertise to manage and train your new staff?
    
    
   
3. Do you have the expertise to understand and comply with the aviation laws?
    
    
   
4. Can you recruit staff with expertise to oversee and audit instructor training, instructors and the schools they run?
    
    
   
5. Do you have the expertise, or can you hire it, to write the necessary documentation to run your organisation (tech manuals etc.)?
    
    
   

 

 

And that's just for starters.

Get CASA to do it.They do it already.