L2 Training

[Teckair]

Like it or not the President is still the President at this time until such time that the RAa website announces otherwise.Owner maintenance biting a flying schoo down the track? Well that would be on the neck of the L2 that did the pre-hire and reward inspection. No different to a dodgey L2 or LAME.

Yep L2 is going to have to remove all the fabric, de construct composite air frames where required, strip down motors check crankshaft alignments and do what ever is required to make sure it is all OK.

 

 

[winsor68]

And many are not in the least aviation qualified... NOT ALL... Plenty of good amateur LAME's out there. But lets face facts... that is what they are right?

 

 

[Guest john]

Yep L2 is going to have to remove all the fabric, de construct composite air frames where required, strip down motors check crankshaft alignments and do what ever is required to make sure it is all OK.

The above information is only scaremongering by people that are inexperienced.

 

To give an actual example: An aircraft that had not been flown for a number of years but had been hangared was sold in an as is where is condition, & providing it had a thorough preflight inspection by an experienced LAME who knew what he was about, this aircraft could be flown safely to a maintenance organisation on a ferry permit for it to undergo its periodic inspection & any other necessary maintenace for the issue of a maintenance release.

 

The first LAME who inspected the plane, indicated that it could not be flown with a ferry permit & stated that the wings had to be removed & the plane transported by road transport to their maintenance hangar, which opinion went down like a lead balloon to the new buyer.

 

The second LAME who was a more experienced LAME in years of hands on experience inspected the plane , & determined that the plane was airworthy & could be safely flown to their maintenace hangar for the necessary additional maintenance to be performed for the issue of a new maintenance release.

 

So it goes to prove beyond doubt that it depends on the experience of the LAME who you deal with whether or not you are satisfied with the maintenance that has to be performed on your plane or whether you are getting touched & taken for a ride simply for you to write out a blank cheque & for the LAME to tell you after the event how much to write on your cheque butt.

 

 

[Teckair]

No problem lets see how it pans out.

 

 

[pylon500]

this aircraft could be flown safely to a maintenance organisation on a ferry permit

You should remember that when an L2 has to make an assessment on an older, or at least 'not perfect looking' plane, he is betting against his reputation and his worldly possessions that the aircraft can survive a ferry flight to a more in depth inspection.

"She'll be right" inspections will eventually bite.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

this is the problem with easily obtained qualifications + aircraft. someone ends up taking some risk.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

FT

 

Anyone who told you that LAME qualifications are easy to get probably thinks that winning Lotto can at times be a tiny bit difficult or that the current RAA problems are relaitvely minor.

 

I looked at geting my LAME Ticket for radio & avionics when I left that RAAF, after all I had 3 years tertiary training by an outside teritiary organisation when I was in the RAAF and then 8 years working F111 and P3C aircraft both as tradesman and supervisor, and saw that CASA gave me exactly nothing towards my LAME ticket and looked at what they got paid vs the level of effort required and decided screw that.

 

To this day I cant see why if it was possible to look after the radar, radio and other electronic systems of the F111 and teh P3C I wasnt qualified to work the entire fleet that CASA oversaw, seem more like a protection racket than an impartial judgement of qualifications....

 

Despite all that the current IT related work I do has provided for me and my family much better than almost any LAME psoition ever would so I dont regret that I didnt go down that path and if I have a hankering to do "stuff" I drag out my 230 and in to it!

 

So, to sum up, LAME qualifications arent easy to get and there are some pretty serious consequences of decisions being made. In the example provided, had the ferrylight resulted in an accident then the LAME who signed off on the ferry flight would have been in court so fast....and the first LAME who said, "on balance of risk I dont want it to occur" would never have got a pat on the back.......Its a loose a lot or loose a little scenario......

 

Andy

 

 

[fly_tornado]

the L2 is a weekend course, Steve Bell was in Clifton doing the course in 2010? L2 isn't a LAME though.

 

 

[turboplanner]

How many weekends?

 

 

[fly_tornado]

1

 

 

[turboplanner]

So I could become an L2 after a one weekend course, and repair aircraft which fly way up there?

 

 

[Guest Lofty1]

You can't get an L2 from a weekend course. The training you speak of is for further education. You need references from at least two others such as a LAME before being issued an L2.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

i think the weekend course was the practical side of the training.

 

 

[facthunter]

The L2 thing seemed to require extensive experience in related skills an you had to supply evidence of these from qualifications gained and referrences from people like LAME's as to work experience, competance etc.

 

I was going to do this but Mick Poole said he did not want lots of L2' who weren't doing a lot of work in the system on the books. I thought this a bit strange at the time, but if that's the policy, so be it. I can still work on my own plane

 

LAME 's get qualifications on certain skills which can be very specific. If a LAME is working on your Jab engine he may never have seen one before yours. It is up to him to get the specific knowledge of that particular engine. He should be familiar with the AD requirements at least Many LAME"s don't work on engines ( Other than to remove and install them). They are built in Approved Workshops, mostly, and that is probably how it should be. If the stuff from THAT source fails, it would lose it's approval eventually. More Q A. Nev

 

 

[Teckair]

So I could become an L2 after a one weekend course, and repair aircraft which fly way up there?

No.

 

 

[winsor68]

the L2 is a weekend course, Steve Bell was in Clifton doing the course in 2010? L2 isn't a LAME though.

I think what TP is saying is that a lot (most?? I wonder what the figures are..) of the L2s maintaining the Ra-Aus fleet are not LAMEs.

 

 

[winsor68]

You can't get an L2 from a weekend course. The training you speak of is for further education. You need references from at least two others such as a LAME before being issued an L2.

Rubbish. That may be what the rules say. I can assure you they are being floated... If Ra-Aus had of audited they would know.

If what you quote is what CASA requires then we really are much deeper in the poo than even I thought. Basically a BIG chunk of the fleet is non-compliant.

 

 

[Teckair]

i think the weekend course was the practical side of the training.

The practical side of training is life skills gained prior to that. If you think it is too easy try getting one yourself.

 

 

[Teckair]

Rubbish. That may be what the rules say. I can assure you they are being floated... If Ra-Aus had of audited they would know.If what you quote is what CASA requires then we really are much deeper in the poo than even I thought. Basically a BIG chunk of the fleet is non-compliant.

I don't believe L2 s are the problem they only look after a small section of the fleet. There is more required to become a L2 than what Lofty has stated.

 

 

[Guest Lofty1]

Windsor I don't understand your post. You need two references to become a level 2. Are you suggesting that this is not the case? I doubt this changed from when I obtained my level two.

 

 

[Steve Donald]

Rubbish. That may be what the rules say. I can assure you they are being floated... If Ra-Aus had of audited they would know.If what you quote is what CASA requires then we really are much deeper in the poo than even I thought. Basically a BIG chunk of the fleet is non-compliant.

I dont think this type of talk is doing anyone any favors or your priviledge to fly under the current delegated CASA Administrator RAAUZ any good at all, in fact this will damage our right to fly, something that many have worked hard for years to achieve. we will be back to 95-10 single seat and 300ft AGL ALT limit if this type of behaviour continues.

 

As for LAMES and L2 maintainers both maintain education on types they work on it is a perpectual learning environment. as it should be, methods and materials change as does the faults that are detected, the majority by far are dedicated to safety and good work , they would also read these forums I also suspect they would take note of who says what and black list them for any work, I hope they do as it is Insurance is High cost I am sure this sort of slagging would affect these cost including hull insurance if they believe what they read posted by some. Lets work toward positive improvement ok we failed Audits it is being fixed, humans make errors RAAUZ is ours look after it, This is the only way forward, I hope this will make sence to some or will all will end up with large expensive garden ornaments, bugger the spelling check i will just post it as is. Happy Flying Steve

 

 

[pylon500]

bugger the spelling check i will just post it as is.

I know what you mean Steve.

I used to visit many US Sites, and was a little concerned at the lack of English skills shown.

 

Sometimes I see similar incoherence here, and realize it is driven by frustration, I agree.

 

There are good and bad L2's, we just need to maintain a dialogue between all, not so much to name and shame, but to let them know that they should try harder, not cut corners, realize this is NOT a way to make a living (unless you are really good) and that we do it for the enjoyment of working on aircraft.

 

I did many years in the RAAF, and then as many years working at Bankstown.

 

If we allow the L2 position to become as complicated as LAME, we have priced ourselves out of existence, just like GA.

 

If you are an L2, take someone under your wing and teach them (but make sure you know what your talking about first!).

 

 

[winsor68]

I dont think this type of talk is doing anyone any favors or your priviledge to fly under the current delegated CASA Administrator RAAUZ any good at all, in fact this will damage our right to fly, something that many have worked hard for years to achieve. we will be back to 95-10 single seat and 300ft AGL ALT limit if this type of behaviour continues.As for LAMES and L2 maintainers both maintain education on types they work on it is a perpectual learning environment. as it should be, methods and materials change as does the faults that are detected, the majority by far are dedicated to safety and good work , they would also read these forums I also suspect they would take note of who says what and black list them for any work, I hope they do as it is Insurance is High cost I am sure this sort of slagging would affect these cost including hull insurance if they believe what they read posted by some. Lets work toward positive improvement ok we failed Audits it is being fixed, humans make errors RAAUZ is ours look after it, This is the only way forward, I hope this will make sence to some or will all will end up with large expensive garden ornaments, bugger the spelling check i will just post it as is. Happy Flying Steve

I think you misunderstand what I am saying Steve... I am saying that the CASA requirement has not been met... keeping quite on this is not going to change the fact...

 

I am not saying that the maintainers, regardless of their LAME status or otherwise are at fault. I am saying that the processes at Ra-Aus head office are at fault. I do not believe that ANY issue currently facing Ra-Aus indicate a safety issue... rather a compliance one.

 

 

[Riley]

As we all know, an unrestricted RAA level 2 is permitted to perform work and sign off on any aircraft registered in the RAA system without holding a type-specific endorsement. In the early days L2 certs were awarded based on an applicant's general airframe/engine knowledge/experience plus an AUF requirement for technical authority in an un-represented locality - certifications weren't handed out just because someone fancied a title. This scenario does have the potential for a 'lower-than-required' standard of service/repair to occur however, my experience over 12 years of AUF/RAA involvement is that 'bad' or shonky' L2s (and thankfully I'm aware of very few) have been quickly identified for their lack of worth within the rec flying community and accordingly didn't/don't get much of a look in. All that said, I guess it comes down to establishing a trust with your Level 2 that he knows what he doesn't know and therefore, will refrain from getting involved in an operation that he isn't confident with. Works for me. cheers

 

 

[Steve Donald]

I know what you mean Steve.I used to visit many US Sites, and was a little concerned at the lack of English skills shown.

Sometimes I see similar incoherence here, and realize it is driven by frustration, I agree.

 

There are good and bad L2's, we just need to maintain a dialogue between all, not so much to name and shame, but to let them know that they should try harder, not cut corners, realize this is NOT a way to make a living (unless you are really good) and that we do it for the enjoyment of working on aircraft.

 

I did many years in the RAAF, and then as many years working at Bankstown.

 

If we allow the L2 position to become as complicated as LAME, we have priced ourselves out of existence, just like GA.

 

If you are an L2, take someone under your wing and teach them (but make sure you know what your talking about first!).

Yes I agree, and most maintainers will network with other maintainers in search of best practice for task at hand, everyone has a special skill, engines, timber, glue, fabric, list goes on and on. As a group networking is the best tool in the box.

 

As for making money out of it, not worth the effort for many, It bites into your own flying time. and the older I get the less time I seem to have, strange but true. As for English skills I dont care to much about it now and enjoy making errors, 5 years of writing Court Reports SBR's ECT, has left me somewhat relaxed in that area when I type.