Just Who is certifying these airplanes?

[facthunter]

I agree with that. You tend to asume the design's structural integrity, so you are going on "condition" and build quality with most examples. If you design and build your own aeroplane you would do some testing of sub assemblies and produce calculations, materials specifications and/ or be required to do load tests.. Faster planes would have to be "flutter proofed" and flight tested more extensively. Weight and Balance is different for each plane so they all have to be individuaally weighed, and the Cof G determined. Nev

 

 

[djpacro]

.... Who is going around visiting builders to see that either they are following the designer's plans; that any modification from the original plans are engineeringly sound ......? ....... What I am interested to know is whether this deep examination of airplanes and documentation is taking place....

That is the "beauty" of experimental - the builder gets to assess whether mods are sound (with a bit of help from LAMEs and the CofA delegate - the pilot gets to choose whether to fly it or not. I recall a blue single seat Pitts imported into the country a while back -not really a Pitts as it was substantially modified. I am surprised that it got a CofA, even more surprised that pilots chose to get in and fly it. My opinion is that it would kill some-one (fortunately it suffered a separate accident with nil injuries).

 

.... Most of my plans have a statement to the effect that if you modify the design, you are not building an "XYZ" any longer and if that was the case, the designer effectively washes their hands of the aircraft.....

Some-one in the UK built an aeroplane from my plans but had the wing "professionally" built by some-one who decided to beef it up substantially. The LAA sought my advice when it was finished as it was too heavy to do aerobatics at the stated max weight - I told them to ask the guy who "designed" the modifications to the wing - especially aileron rotation/wing torsional natural frequencies and flutter mode; effect of extra wing weight on spin characteristics.

 

.....and another mate who designs flying machines for money( not a bad pilot for a hack either ;-)

.. and who has built an aeroplane plus maintained it.

 

I agree that Reg 35 AEs would have the theoretical knowledge, but they probably don't have the hands-on experience. You really need a practical person whose experience lets them see things that are wrong.

Agreed but please don't generalise wrt Aeronautical/Aerospace Engineers and Reg 35s (NB - Reg 35 no longer exists) - some have much experience at aircraft production, some have built their own aeroplanes and some have maintenance experience. The USA FAA has a system of engineering delegations which are very specific as to scope addressing Thruster87's comment.

[winsor68]

EAA chapters perform the "Big Brother" function in the States... Pockets of these sort exist in Australia. But again it is not widespread and it means nothing if Ra-Aus has befuddled the paper trail.

 

 

[kgwilson]

If someone decides to improve (why would you make something worse?) a plan/kit/finished homebuilt, then it is the designer/manufacturer's prerogative to diss-own the final product.

Part of the amateur concept is learning about the technology, design, hand skills and aerodynamics of aircraft, if you just follow someone else's plans/kit/build, then you miss a lot of learning and just end up with ownership of someone else's aeroplane with your paint job.

It is also in the interests of everyone in the flying community that amateur built aircraft are as safe as they can be. There are too many home built aircraft where the kit or original design has been modified because the builder (usually a first time builder) thought it would be a good idea to beef something up or whatever forgetting the effect on weight & balance or that it is supposed to flex & beefing it up may in fact make it weaker. I once was an Injunear but I have learned an incredible amount in building my kit & to date the only modification is to make the tail fin & rudder about 100mm taller than the plan said. I can understand that building some of the "quick build" or join the dots sort of kits you would miss out on a huge amount of learning about technology, aerodynamics, design etc as all you are really doing is a final assembly.

 

 

[Yenn]

Greg. I concur with what you say and add that SAAA suggests that you have 3 inspections by a technical councillor and then you will have an Approved Person who will check out the degree of danger and make a test flying regime to suit. The RAAus doesn't require any inspectiond bo other than the builder. You have to be seen to to the final inspection by an approved person, but that person does not do the inspection.

 

The big deal is when someone decides to improve on the design, which has worked well. It is very easy to improve the design to the point of failure.

 

 

[eightyknots]

.You only have to look at what happened with the Zodiac 601xl, it is now the most tested design in history of LSA aircraft. Cheers

That should give you the greatest peace of mind every time you step into that plane.

 

 

[planet47]

Man this is all very daunting for me who is considering building from scratch!

 

 

[metalman]

Man this is all very daunting for me who is considering building from scratch!

Don't be put off, do the research on which kit, get on the net, there is several forums for just about every aircraft on the planet, get around and find other builders locally, and while your building just remember the old saying "measure twice, cut once", building an aircraft isn't hard, it just takes tenacity and commitment. If your looking at kits and can afford it go quick build ,it really helps but if you have the hands on skills then slow build is okay ( I have a slow build RV6) , mostly if someone sounds like an expert get some idea of what they've built ,flown or been involved with, not all that talk a big game really know their stuff

Cheers Met,

 

 

[planet47]

Thanks metalman2 for that. It will be a scratch build and I know someone quite knowledgeable and helpful on the subject so for that I am grateful and as long as he keeps the technical jargon simple I will be even more grateful - should be ready in about 10 years time I think (only joking I hope).

 

 

[metalman]

Be careful with the time frame, when I started on the six I got told whatever time I figured ,double it!!! Twenty years is a long time to keep focus ;-)

 

What type are you considering?

 

 

[planet47]

Twenty years I think will see me dead. Type? Something that flies faster and has a better range than the slowsilver, can put a passenger in or a couple of bags, no sailcloth, with a pusher motor and definitely a fuel guage. I don't want unnecessary instruments, the slowsilver is limited to some basic instruments and I am happy with that. However, I like the view out of the slowsilver's pod and because I am vertically challenged, I feel that it will be necessary for it not to be built for individuals who are 6ft tall and 6" wide. Different ones appeal to me along this line such as the titan tornado and thundergull. The only problem I envisage with that look is the low tail for landings and takeoffs. There are many aspects to this that I have to learn and there is a lot of decisions that will get made or are being made or perhaps have been made (?). I like the slowsilver but.......

 

 

[Thruster87]

Be careful with the time frame, when I started on the six I got told whatever time I figured ,double it!!! Twenty years is a long time to keep focus ;-)What type are you considering?

It took me a year working most days on finishing a Zodiac 601xlB kit. De -burring every hole and edge, I reckon consumed half the build time,but it was still very satisfying project. Cheers

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Tornado's problem is people walking on the tail, not the landings.

 

 

[icebob]

When I built my first "kit" aircraft a few years ago I was so frustrated at finding no one in RAA in the Sydney area available to inspect the aircraft at the time I needed it and would need to wait a month for the inspection. I put the aircraft on a a 3ton truck drove to RAA HQ got the Maintenance Manager to inspect it and did all the paperwork needed on the spot. The park up the road from HQ was handy for the inspection and it drew a crowd/clown plus one dog.

 

Bob

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

C

 

When I built my first "kit" aircraft a few years ago I was so frustrated at finding no one in RAA in the Sydney area available to inspect the aircraft at the time I needed it and would need to wait a month for the inspection. I put the aircraft on a a 3ton truck drove to RAA HQ got the Maintenance Manager to inspect it and did all the paperwork needed on the spot. The park up the road from HQ was handy for the inspection and it drew a crowd/clown plus one dog.Bob

Cricket! A city of 4 million could not field an inspector. That means I have problems in my rural area. As mentioned in other posts, the SAAA is well set up to help amateur builders. I found several part-built aircraft in Sydney suburban garages, plus a wealth of experience and good advice.

 

 

[Viper]

It is also in the interests of everyone in the flying community that amateur built aircraft are as safe as they can be. There are too many home built aircraft where the kit or original design has been modified because the builder (usually a first time builder) thought it would be a good idea to beef something up or whatever forgetting the effect on weight & balance or that it is supposed to flex & beefing it up may in fact make it weaker. I once was an Injunear but I have learned an incredible amount in building my kit & to date the only modification is to make the tail fin & rudder about 100mm taller than the plan said. I can understand that building some of the "quick build" or join the dots sort of kits you would miss out on a huge amount of learning about technology, aerodynamics, design etc as all you are really doing is a final assembly.

Hi Kg wilson

Thats a interesting point of view , however there is a reason that they are called home builts { 51 % }, If you follow a recommened path knowing from your own vast manufacturing experience that the path you are taking is of very poor design and construction techniques then you are exposing yourself to unnessasary risk , And just because a manufacturer starts a company, designs a plane and starts selling them, in no way makes that manufacturer a expert or his product beyond design flaws . If you are the sort of builder who is incapable of assesing whether the technique or product you are build ing is wrong then maybe you should not be building a plane ,as all you are doing is blindly trusting someone else. and my recent experiences have taught me that the only person you can trust to do the right thing in your own personal flying is you

 

 

[pylon500]

It's unfortunate that the financial investment in building your own aircraft is such that it's hard to say;

 

"Well, I've learnt a lot building that, I've also learnt that what I've built is rubbish, so I will have another go and get it right"

 

By the same token, by the time many people have 'finished' a homebuilt, they have usually made enough parts (and thrown them out) to built two and a half planes!

 

Welcome to the learning process.

 

What worries me more than someone who eventually finishes and flies their first aircraft, are the ones that then go on and think;

 

"That was easy. Now I will modify it, and go into production, and sell them" not realising that if it was easy, it was because the original designer put a lot of thought into the aerodynamics, engineering, plans and parts, and a manual to help beginners put it together.

 

The better designers usually have a background of working their way up through the aviation industry, to avoid having to learn by their own mistakes.

 

 

[planet47]

I don't think I will be embarking on a career of building planes - just one will do fine!

 

 

[pylon500]

i dodn't want to reply pylon

'I didn't want to reply'

You will note I have not mentioned any names, probably because I know of a few!

 

I've been around.........