New RA-Aus Accounting issue

[damkia]

The "who" doesn't come into it, until you have determine that the "what" was really very naughty, and then the "how" becomes a polite way of saying "who".However, if it is found that the "what" was naughty, but authorised, obscured or fudged so no one can be prosecuted, then it would have been bad (defamatory, or embarrassing) to allege fraud or other illegality, when it turns out you can't do much....

It is a peculiar and specialised a style of writing. However, if you can translate, it is saying "We have an issue we should tell you about, but can't tell much you about. So if you get cranky later when it turns out to be a debacle, we did inform you as much as we could".

 

I know the board hasn't informed us in the past, but this has a nasty ring to it, and I suspect the circumspect language is that of an accountant who thinks they may have a real problem on their hands, and is trying to responsibly disclose what he/she can now, without prejudicing an investigation. Again, I think we just have to wait.

 

dodo

I was more concerned about the (deliberate?) lack of anyone actually quoted as taking responsibility to find out the "who", whatever the outcome. (whitewashing)

If RAA want to give information in a reasonably presentable public way, take a leaf out of the journalists "6 W's" (what, where, who, why, when, and how) and include all those in your release. Poor writing style or half of the information doesn't help the current RAA cause.

 

 

[turboplanner]

That's a nice little start.

 

Now come on board members; dig a little deeper, go back a little further.

 

Why on earth do some members, who have done no research into the accounts, have not seen the long term figures, and have no understanding of the issues try to gag their fellow members who are acting with due concern and caution in the interests of their organization?

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

Why am i not surprised?

 

 

[sain]

That's a nice little start.Now come on board members; dig a little deeper, go back a little further.

Why on earth do some members, who have done no research into the accounts, have not seen the long term figures, and have no understanding of the issues try to gag their fellow members who are acting with due concern and caution in the interests of their organization?

who is trying to gag you exactly?

 

 

[turboplanner]

I was referring to Rocketing's reference to an open attack.

 

 

[Rocketing]

That's a nice little start.Now come on board members; dig a little deeper, go back a little further.

Why on earth do some members, who have done no research into the accounts, have not seen the long term figures, and have no understanding of the issues try to gag their fellow members who are acting with due concern and caution in the interests of their organization?

Hi TurboPlanner

 

Well, I may be new on the forum and only joined the RAA this year but I have been part of the aviation world since I was born (my Dad was a fighter pilot and qualified accident investigator) and I actually work in the aviation (safety) industry and understand aviation safety governance and governing bodies fairly well.

 

I have studied the accounts - and not only the ones sent out with the latest magazine - as much as I could. I actually did real searches to find out as much as I could. Read the info around the "Ian issue" that so many refer to and agree there are issues to be discussed and resolved. As a new member I wanted to make sure I understand what is going on and I actually did many many many hours of research. I have read through hundreds - wait, make that thousands as the CASA audit posting itself has more than a 1159 comments at the moment and I have read every signle one of them - of posts on this forum to gain insight into the current state of affairs as I am actually concerned about the future of the RAA as I will be a part of this for a long time. (My son will also be starting his flying lessons in the next 2 years so I am really invested for the long term)

 

Maybe you could have asked me about my intentions privately :) I did not attempt to gag anybody. Just asking people to actually take a breath before they just start blurting out a bunch of assumptions, accusations, allegations etc just for the hell of it. How about starting to work together. It will be painful for US AND THE BOARD.

 

What I can say is that I have looked at everything from an objective point of view and I have noticed that there are issues to be sorted out by the board. (Obviously) I have also noticed that there are not many people willing to put themselves forward to be voted onto the board. You and many other people claim that this forum is the "unofficial RA-Aus" forum and I must be honest that I only see a 1-way attack on anything that is said if it is not anti-board and if somebody wants to give a potentially pro-board comment or even suggest potential solutions they are seen and labeled as uninformed, ignorant lazy members.

 

I understand there are many many issues to be sorted out. There is a meeting on 9 Feb and YES, I am going to attend it. Obviously there will be a heated discussion and that is what it should be. I don't live in Canberra so will have to spend some $ and time to get there. Are you attending the meeting TP? Maybe we can have an in-depth discussion then.

 

Maybe if we allow people to actually feel safe in trying to voice their opinions in a manner where they want to see us working toward a working solution and NOT a dogfight with a winner takes all mentality we will get more people involved.

 

I know that the official RA-Aus forum is not up yet and that is also part of the issue but maybe this forum can change its tone slightly and you will see some more pro-active communications.

 

This is only worth 2 cents as that is all I had left after spending my real dollars on a box full of kevlar jackets :)

 

Rocketing

 

 

[Captain]

Maybe if we allow people to actually feel safe in trying to voice their opinions in a manner where they want to see us working toward a working solution and NOT a dogfight with a winner takes all mentality we will get more people involved.

Rocky,

 

I don't know where the impression has come from that would have you post that this is likely to be a "dogfight with a winner takes all mentality".

 

From all of the work that is going on in the background, nothing could be further from the truth.

 

What I anticipate will happen at the EGM is VERY serious & considered discussion on VERY serious, researched & considered issues, .................. and the final outcome will be up to the members that attend and who send their proxies. The interested members will be the ones that make the final decisions at that meeting.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Regards Geoff

 

 

[turboplanner]

Rocketing, I'm not against anyone and I think it's offensive to throw around words like kevlar jackets implying that people want to shoot each other.

 

I chose my words carefully, encouraging the existing board members to dig deeper.

 

If you had read all those posts you must have seen some advice repeated, very specifically, by me six or eight times in the last few weeks.

 

I'm sorry, I was a little inclusive in inferring you had done no research and accept that you have looked at the figures in the magazines, but I was referring to the more detailed financial reports signed off by the auditors and lodged with the ACT Department of Justice, which I've mentioned several times, with no responses coming from this forum.

 

 

[Spriteah]

Turbo, dig deeper? Tell me what u actually think we are doing? Tell this forum in-depth details. Well that would be a kangaroo court situation and do nothing for the raa. Thanks rocket. Your views are refreshing.

 

It's funny, people want to be informed, we give them what we can, but it's not enough. I truly believe if you want to assist with the future of the raa put your hand up. Not sit back and snipe at those having a go. Ps you can call me anytime to discuss issues.

 

Regards

 

Jim tatlock

 

Vic rep.

 

 

[sain]

Thanks for responding Jim,

 

Personally I'd be glad to help out the RA-Aus, time and skillset permitting. However right now I don't think you need a software developer or any IT security work. Let me know if I'm wrong and we will see what we can work out. Have you guys asked for any help yet? From the posts the President has been putting out you wouldn't think its required. After all, the staff have it under control, registrations are being processed, the backlog is being cleared, renewals are being sent out.....

 

Unfortunately one thing the board members and the President have to work through is a significant amount of distrust from the membership. Having the RA-Aus office reporting a computer problem when CASA had pulled the ability to register/re-register aircraft was a mistake, and not a lot has been done to rectify that just yet. Some other behaviour has made it worse (claiming backlogs were being cleared when renewals wern't being sent).

 

As a number of people have stated, its great to see the post about the accounting issue go up. We are very happy to see efforts being made. You can't say there is a lot of detail in the post however. Is it just a procedural issue that needs to be figured out, or is it more serious? Will there be any potential for impact to flying operations? If you can't say yet, then thats fine.... nothing to see here, move along, etc etc.

 

For the board members who are posting here, thanks. It is helping.

 

 

[Spriteah]

I do not believe an accounting issue will affect your flying

 

 

[68volksy]

Can I just say that there is absolutely no need for alarm just because an organisation has "called in the auditors". Most small organisations like RA-Aus do not have a team of qualified accountants fully versed in all the requirements needed to run a small business. I (as an auditor) often get called in when something is dug up in such organisations as I'm the only person with accounting or business knowledge that they know. It also helps that I understand their business thoroughly. It would appear that this is exactly what has happened in this instance.

 

On the subject of what an auditor does I suggest a careful reading of the audit report. An auditors role is to provide assurance, not to certify. Many people expect the auditor to uncover fraud and there are many things we do to this purpose, however it needs to be remembered that the purpose of fraud is not to be detected! An auditor does not re-create each and every entry made during the year - they simply test transactions and verify account balances in order to reduce the risk of a misstatement. All this is done with a view to what is considered material to a reasonable user of the accounts (ie what amount would affect their interpretation of the accounts and decision-making processes).

 

 

[octave]

but I was referring to the more detailed financial reports signed off by the auditors and lodged with the ACT Department of Justice

TP if you have gone through these financial reports can't you just tell us what you found (either publicly or privately) I can't understand why each member should independently follow the same paper trail.

 

 

[kgwilson]

As far as the audit of the financial report for the last year is concerned, I have no doubt it was undertaken as it is a legal requirement. What I find odd is that the Auditors report is not prepared by the auditor at all but by the treasurer and CEO. There should be a signed statement from the auditor that they have examined the books & accounts of the RAA & in their opinion everything complies with relevant accounting procedures & legal requirements. If these so called accounting issues were uncovered during the audit of the accounts, then RSM Bird Cameron would not be able to provide such a statement. This may also be the reason that the accounts took so long to be published with a pseudo audit report.

 

 

[kgwilson]

Did you get a calender? where's mine? I must have over looked it, will have to check again.

Its a year planner, a lot cheaper that producing a useful calendar. I anyone thinks that there will be a real calendar in the February issue it ain't gonna happen. This reduced option was probably negotiated when the publisher was changed.

 

 

[Rocketing]

Rocky,I don't know where the impression has come from that would have you post that this is likely to be a "dogfight with a winner takes all mentality".

 

From all of the work that is going on in the background, nothing could be further from the truth.

 

What I anticipate will happen at the EGM is VERY serious & considered discussion on VERY serious, researched & considered issues, .................. and the final outcome will be up to the members that attend and who send their proxies. The interested members will be the ones that make the final decisions at that meeting.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Regards Geoff

Hi Geoff,

 

If you read the forum postings in general with an OBJECTIVE viewpoint you can come to no other conclusion than this forum is anti-RAA-Board as they stand at the moment. I don't have the time at the moment to go back and quote the numerous comments made in regard to sacking board members at the EGM meeting on 9 Feb. I will acknowledge that the majority of those comments keep calling on getting rid of the Board Executive and only a few comments lean toward the idea of sacking the whole board as such. (As I need to factor in the few board members that have posted here in recent weeks are now seen as 'friends' and it counts in their favour apart from John M as it seems whatever he says is accepted as fact without scrutiny and he has done a great job to try and keep forum posters in line with the truth and correct anything when it was miss-quoted or turned out to be different to his first thought)

 

What work is going on in the background? Per that definition I am unable to be aware of it as it is not exposed to the public. You talking about the board trying to clean up the registration issues and organise the RAA better or you talking about a bunch of members building a case to put toward the board at the EGM?

 

I think we all anticipate a heated EGM and am looking forward to it.

 

The scary bit to me is the following :".................. and the final outcome will be up to the members that attend and who send their proxies. The interested members will be the ones that make the final decisions at that meeting."

 

From what I have seen on this forum the proxies at the moment are mainly going to be all in favour of the anti-establishment group (working in the background?) as I was considering to send in a proxy form but decided to attend it in person. This scares me as we all know that the 'interested' members mostly refer to the active group here on the forum where the main viewpoint is "we will show them" and it is very difficult to get people who are actually just enjoying their flying and not really social media types (as that is all that a forum is) to get involved. (Sometimes referred to as the lazy, ignorant etc members)

 

Please note that from what I have seen so far the majority of members are - how shall I state it - well experienced in life. That also translates to "Not as active on the internet and other social media / forum communities" as the 'younger' members.

 

At this moment I am scared that there will be a few emotional people walking around with a bunch of proxies at the EGM to make decisions that could potentially have a real negative impact on the RAA.

 

Now, please don't just go by this single post. Please read my previous post together with this one. I am IN FAVOUR of change where and when it is needed. If there are any CRIMINAL evidence, bring it out otherwise lets start working together instead of just accusing left and right.

 

Rocketing

 

 

[Rocketing]

Rocketeer, I'm not against anyone and I think it's offensive to throw around words like kevlar jackets implying that people want to shoot each other.I chose my words carefully, encouraging the existing board members to dig deeper.

 

If you had read all those posts you must have seen some advice repeated, very specifically, by me six or eight times in the last few weeks.

 

I'm sorry, I was a little inclusive in inferring you had done no research and accept that you have looked at the figures in the magazines, but I was referring to the more detailed financial reports signed off by the auditors and lodged with the ACT Department of Justice, which I've mentioned several times, with no responses coming from this forum.

Hi TP,

 

Sorry if I offended you by wearing a kevlar jacket. (I have handed them in for a refund )

 

Yes, I saw a lot of advise repeated. I also saw a lot of other stuff repeated. I also saw rumours grow and grow until it got confirmed that it was only a rumour without trying to 'fix the damage' with the same effort as feeding the rumours.

 

I actually got my hands on some older financial details yes. No, I didn't pay the money to get the DOJ report. Will you please send me a copy?

 

All I am saying is that as I have not been involved for the last 2-3 years I do have a viewpoint based on what I can find on the website, speaking to long term members and this forum and I have the luxury of still being able to be objective. I acknowledge your input and investment in the past but unfortunately the only solution now and next year will be to WORK TOGETHER not to try and blind-side one another. I am referring to both members and board members here.

 

At the end of the day, not every Australian is going to stand up to be voted into government but we all have our opinion about how the government performs. (Please don't get me started on that now :)

 

Friends?

 

Rocketing

 

 

[68volksy]

As far as the audit of the financial report for the last year is concerned, I have no doubt it was undertaken as it is a legal requirement. What I find odd is that the Auditors report is not prepared by the auditor at all but by the treasurer and CEO. There should be a signed statement from the auditor that they have examined the books & accounts of the RAA & in their opinion everything complies with relevant accounting procedures & legal requirements. If these so called accounting issues were uncovered during the audit of the accounts, then RSM Bird Cameron would not be able to provide such a statement. This may also be the reason that the accounts took so long to be published with a pseudo audit report.

The audit report is actually prepared and signed by the auditor (there's a signed copy on the RA-Aus website). The audit report provides an opinion from the auditor on the financial accounts. It is the financial accounts that are prepared by the organisation which are then audited and the audit report is attached. The auditor states quite clearly in their report that (in their opinion) the accounts represent a true and fair view etc.

 

(the following isn't aimed at you kg )

 

I'd love for everyone to keep in mind that an audit is an audit and to look it up in the dictionary if you're unsure of the meaning. It is not a certification that everything is 100% accurate (the more time you spend in accounting the more you realise there's no such thing as "100% accurate"!!!). It is simply a statement that procedures have been followed (generally the auditing standards) and an opinion expressed. Look closely at the opinion - it uses the words "True and Fair", not 100% accurate.

 

 

[408059]

A couple of observations.

 

1) The early conjecture about what this is all about is quite entertaining but hardly surprising given what has been communicated and the way it was communicated.

 

I touched base with my Board member to find out a little more about the issue. My read of the reasons for the audit is that this is yet another example of systems not growing with the organization. The organization does not have the internal controls and processes you would expect or a ‘peak entity’ for recreation flying. When I spoke with my Board member nothing had been found except for the absence of appropriate checks and balances.

 

Looking to the positive, the Board has found a governance issue, informed the membership and is doing something about it. Pity it didn’t happen 5 years back. They really do need an internal audit process that periodically looks at these issues and reports back to the Board or a committee thereof.

 

I’m taken back many years to when Lee and Mick from the RAA office used to frequent our airfield. Over coffee you used to get insights into the sometimes dysfunction behavior of some Board members and the lack of process and procedure. Sure has come back to bite the organization. Bit sad nothing has been done about improving the systems given the retained earnings RAA has.

 

2) RSM Bird Cameron is a 2nd Tier Accounting Firm. It is on the Commonwealth Government procurement panel for the Agency I have some dealings with so it has jumped various vetting hurdles. I nearly used them for some contract due diligence work that I needed done so I know they have forensic accounting expertise. Not sure the Melbourne problems are all that relevant to the Canberra scene.

 

3) I hope some effort and thought goes into the upcoming recruitment of senior staff. Most people try to do a good job but if you don’t have direction from the Board, if you do not have the resources to perform the work, if you do not have the skills or experience then you are bound to fail. You need managers with strong management skills together with industry sector credibility and not-for-profit experience. You need Ops people who have the experience, are committed to RAA and can communicate. You need tech people with the right skills, can problem solve, can say no to members when required and can communicate. The position descriptions for these positions need to fully articulate real word need these people must deliver on. Sure hope they can get it right because the risk of bad recruitment can result in problems that haunts for years.

 

4) Turbo, you dropped me hints about the past finances in one of your posts. You were a little too cryptic for me. Please PM me and I’ll follow through.

 

Cheers

 

Steve

 

 

[Robert]

Its a year planner, a lot cheaper that producing a useful calendar. I anyone thinks that there will be a real calendar in the February issue it ain't gonna happen. This reduced option was probably negotiated when the publisher was changed.

I want my proper calender WWWHHHHHAAAAAAA:roflmao:

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Hi Geoff,If you read the forum postings in general with an OBJECTIVE viewpoint you can come to no other conclusion than this forum is anti-RAA-Board as they stand at the moment. I don't have the time at the moment to go back and quote the numerous comments made in regard to sacking board members at the EGM meeting on 9 Feb. I will acknowledge that the majority of those comments keep calling on getting rid of the Board Executive and only a few comments lean toward the idea of sacking the whole board as such. (As I need to factor in the few board members that have posted here in recent weeks are now seen as 'friends' and it counts in their favour apart from John M as it seems whatever he says is accepted as fact without scrutiny and he has done a great job to try and keep forum posters in line with the truth and correct anything when it was miss-quoted or turned out to be different to his first thought)

 

What work is going on in the background? Per that definition I am unable to be aware of it as it is not exposed to the public. You talking about the board trying to clean up the registration issues and organise the RAA better or you talking about a bunch of members building a case to put toward the board at the EGM?

 

I think we all anticipate a heated EGM and am looking forward to it.

 

The scary bit to me is the following :".................. and the final outcome will be up to the members that attend and who send their proxies. The interested members will be the ones that make the final decisions at that meeting."

 

From what I have seen on this forum the proxies at the moment are mainly going to be all in favour of the anti-establishment group (working in the background?) as I was considering to send in a proxy form but decided to attend it in person. This scares me as we all know that the 'interested' members mostly refer to the active group here on the forum where the main viewpoint is "we will show them" and it is very difficult to get people who are actually just enjoying their flying and not really social media types (as that is all that a forum is) to get involved. (Sometimes referred to as the lazy, ignorant etc members)

 

Please note that from what I have seen so far the majority of members are - how shall I state it - well experienced in life. That also translates to "Not as active on the internet and other social media / forum communities" as the 'younger' members.

 

At this moment I am scared that there will be a few emotional people walking around with a bunch of proxies at the EGM to make decisions that could potentially have a real negative impact on the RAA.

 

Now, please don't just go by this single post. Please read my previous post together with this one. I am IN FAVOUR of change where and when it is needed. If there are any CRIMINAL evidence, bring it out otherwise lets start working together instead of just accusing left and right.

 

Rocketing

Apologies to those that have been here a while, what follows is a repeat........

 

About 18 months ago I stepped into this argument arguing that those that were loudest and most strident were being unfair and needed to do all the things that you are saying now.

 

However over the last 18 months I've had time to talk to the individuals involved , on the phone and face to face and I've then been able to review claims made against facts and others involved.

 

What I found was that in the main the claims that were made which i then investigated had a basis of fact.

 

Now it is true in my opinion that some people here are over the top in terms of emotion, but it's an Internet phenomena that people who seem like rabid idiots on line can be genuine folk with the very best of intents but lacking in online communications skills.

 

So, my recommendation to you is, rather that assume people here are anti board and will be no matter what, actually investigate the claims made, you might find that there is more basis than you give credence to today.

 

Speaking for myself I'm not anti board, I am looking to have a number of them move on but not because they are idiots or inherently bad but rather they are contributing either intentionally or otherwise to RAAus staying as a footy club style of management which is simply not appropriate to the size and complexity of the organisation.

 

I have said before that I acknowledge that there are some on the board mainly the executive who work damn hard for the organisation but I still claim that hard work directed tangentially to where we need to go is not of the value we need. Technology and communication options are more widespread and instantaneous than in any time in history, and yet our communications haven't moved forward in years. We are being short changed. At the last AGM it was asked, what is the strategic plan? The initial answer was that we don't have one, which was then changed to "we have an action list" which was produced as a result of some training that CASA pushed very hard for our board to do. You should ask what progress has been made with that action list. At the AGM there was no progress at all, and that training was the reason given for the big increase in board costs. So bottom line the board other than for some enforced training had no strategic plan...doesn't that concern you? I believe it should.

 

There are in my opinion also a bunch on the board who are there to occupy a chair and seemingly do little else. They also need to be moved on and replaced with those that will do more than appear officious.

 

So, how about you, will you be putting your hand up for board membership next time around?

 

I've said before that I would prefer not to, but while there are those that shouldn't be there it would be unreasonable to argue they should go and do nothing about making that happen.

 

Regards

 

Andy

 

 

[terryc]

Hi rocketing, you are where we have all been, defending raa and trying to be supportive of the board, defending them when and were we can but the time will come for you as it has for us when you can no longer sit back an support them when they are in over their heads. Are they hard working ? Yes, Do they have raas best interests at heart? Yes, So what's the problem? They need help in understanding their role and responsibility. I picked up two minutes ago the notice calling the GM that arrived today with my sports pilot mag and read Middo's comments regarding points one and two. He Doesn't get it. Someone tell him please. It appears to me they must be in over their heads if they don't see the problems. Another comment was '' it is not fully understood what is meant by current state of affairs". Pleasssseeee will somebody tell him. With the small amount of pressure applied through this site we do see as you have noted an effort to communicate and that's good but has a long way to go. Had it not been for this site I don't believe they would have told us the members anything. If you continue to read various threads dating back two or three years you will see quite clearly that the discussions are not one sided as you suggest at all, but well balanced and considered. Lately with the added problems that Middo "can't see" there is an added strain as people try to understand what the hell is going on. It's like pulling teeth. Thank you for your contribution as it adds to the tapestry that is recreational flying.

 

Regards Terry.

 

 

[Spriteah]

I love everyone is getting involve. Terry and Andy as board vacancies arrive I'm sure you will be in the running and we need people like you to get involved and help change. Tell me when you put in and I will help on your campaign.

 

As said before yes we do want and occasionally need help. Often that is just a call to you local member.

 

On another note I want to create advertisements for RAA. Both radio and tv. Can anyone here help me, in the industry?

 

 

[drifterdriver]

Thanks Jim and John for bringing this last accounting issue to the notice of the members.

 

Nick

 

 

[Captain]

I love everyone is getting involve. Terry and Andy as board vacancies arrive I'm sure you will be in the running and we need people like you to get involved and help change. Tell me when you put in and I will help on your campaign.As said before yes we do want and occasionally need help. Often that is just a call to you local member.

 

On another note I want to create advertisements for RAA. Both radio and tv. Can anyone here help me, in the industry?

Jim. Thanks for your post and the way you are asking for input. Regards Geoff