Ultralight Federation mark II anyone?

[winsor68]

Not many of our aircraft tuck away 3 wheels mostly they drag them through the air. Tailwheel planes are superior to nosewheels in all ways, they have less drag, they are lighter, they are stronger and they can handle shorter rougher airstrips.

Not really a valid argument.

There has been an ongoing bravado shown in regards to Taildraggers for many years. The best pilots in my opinion although they may give a friendly ribbing know, based upon sense (that is not so common today and never really was it seems), that this argument is really out of date and based upon Ego rather than facts.

 

Regarding sailplane pilots... Facts are facts... and the ability to truly and intimately know the medium we fly in can not be underestimated IMO. Not saying all Sailplane Pilots are better than Power Pilots, just as not all Tailwheel Pilots are better than Tri-gear Pilots... but you surely would become a better all round Pilot with experience in all of the above.

 

 

[Pete Greed]

Any sort of aircraft that keeps the over 70's in the air has got to be good for the soul ......who gives a stuff about their performance on the ground Love my kit built Jabbie.

 

 

[Teckair]

Not really a valid argument.There has been an ongoing bravado shown in regards to Taildraggers for many years. The best pilots in my opinion although they may give a friendly ribbing know, based upon sense (that is not so common today and never really was it seems), that this argument is really out of date and based upon Ego rather than facts.

Regarding sailplane pilots... Facts are facts... and the ability to truly and intimately know the medium we fly in can not be underestimated IMO. Not saying all Sailplane Pilots are better than Power Pilots, just as not all Tailwheel Pilots are better than Tri-gear Pilots... but you surely would become a better all round Pilot with experience in all of the above.

As far as I am concerned I stated facts and you stated opinions but that is just my opinion.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

I reckon that flying a brick with an 8000hp rotax is the go...... <Yawn> hasnt this particular argument beeen done to death many times over.... I fly a tricycle 3 axis and a weight shift. Both are fantastic and I bet if I flew a tail dragger that would be fantastic as well, and if I could fly that brick, I suspect it might even have some fun potential as well........ As young Tomo seems to be working out he who flys the most differnt types has the most fun! Even better in his case that they are someone elses!!!

 

If the next 20 years of RAAus evolution has anywhere near the twists and turns of the last perhaps we will be flying ones that put them away between ground stints...and maybe a kero burner for a source of go without throughbolts and still the ability to fly a scout if thats your thing (and there are flying ones still around!)

 

Andy

 

 

[winsor68]

As far as I am concerned I stated facts and you stated opinions but that is just my opinion.

Your facts are based upon a fallacy and that is a fact not my opinion... Any Aircraft is the sum of its design.

If all the qualities you state for Taildraggers were true a Goodyear Racer with a tailwheel would make a better short and rough field performer than say a Savanah with tri-gear.

 

I agree the skill set required for Taildraggers is of a higher order than flying a Tri-gear in a general sense... but overall and by the same basis then an F-18 or a 737 must be a breeze to land... as long as one has Taildragger experience.

 

Each to their own and I personally hope to have the Taildragger qualification in my logbook one day... just because all the Pilots who I hold in the highest esteem flew Taildraggers. They also used to have the same argument as has gone on in this thread... but they all took it with a grain of salt and played it as a friendly form of ribbing without letting their ego get in the way... and this to me is the MOST important skill a Pilot can possess. A strong sense of self without the need to put ego before all regardless of which type of aircraft they flew.

 

 

[Teckair]

Andy Yes you are right and I have avoided the subject, it was turbo's comments that got it started but he was probably just fishing to see what he could stir up. Perhaps it is best not to take things too seriously on forums which is a pity because they can be of value.

 

 

[Pilot Pete]

I have been a bike rider all my life Nev and used to push the boundaries too far often when I was young. These days my bike riding skills may be questionable, in any case I would NOT push the boundaries, the gravel rash and bruises don't heal as fast as they used to.

Just read this and would have to agree. In your earlier years of riding you would bounce a bit when you came off. Now its like watching a bag of cement fall off a pallet. It just goes thud and doesnt move again untill picked up.

 

 

[David Isaac]

Jees ... That got the blood flowing ... Phew.

 

 

[Teckair]

Your facts are based upon a fallacy and that is a fact not my opinion... Any Aircraft is the sum of its design.If all the qualities you state for Taildraggers were true a Goodyear Racer with a tailwheel would make a better short and rough field performer than say a Savanah with tri-gear.

I agree the skill set required for Taildraggers is of a higher order than flying a Tri-gear in a general sense... but overall and by the same basis then an F-18 or a 737 must be a breeze to land... as long as one has Taildragger experience.

 

Each to their own and I personally hope to have the Taildragger qualification in my logbook one day... just because all the Pilots who I hold in the highest esteem flew Taildraggers. They also used to have the same argument as has gone on in this thread... but they all took it with a grain of salt and played it as a friendly form of ribbing without letting their ego get in the way... and this to me is the MOST important skill a Pilot can possess. A strong sense of self without the need to put ego before all regardless of which type of aircraft they flew.

I gave you more credit than that, OK I will explain further, I am comparing planes like tailwheel and nose wheel Lightwings, Skyfox and Gazelle, tailwheel and nosewheel Jabiru, Piper Pacer and Tripacer, Cessna 180 and 182 and so on, do you understand now? My comments do relate to these examples. This all started from derogatory comments made by Turbo whom I suspect was fishing for bites. I do not accept the friendly 'form of ribbing' excuse and could not care about the ego factor I was simply stating facts as I understood them.

 

 

[bernieh]

As far as I am concerned I stated facts and you stated opinions but that is just my opinion.

Fact and opinion are all subject to interperation...That keeps an entire media industry in business!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

[turboplanner]

Well that certainly got the conversation going didn't it.

 

 

[Guest nunans]

Hey nunans why did you like that ridiculous comment, you must have hit the wrong button I think you can unlike it if you wish. Jabiru a big aircraft really?? the nose wheel BS really???

i liked it because it was funny. but jabs are big compared to my pup and the nose wheel should get you by if you are carefull and only land on nice runways at aerodromes. hell with a really sharp pilot at the stick they have even been known to survive the odd outlanding should the engine give up the fight to stay running...

 

 

[Teckair]

Well that certainly got the conversation going didn't it.

Yeah but all you did is add weight to the uninformed, unenlightened theory.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Which uninformed, unenlightened theory is this?

 

 

[Teckair]

Which uninformed, unenlightened theory is this?

Really?? you don't know? I guess that backs up my post. Those comments were made by someone in the executive about people on this forum.

 

 

[Guernsey]

Fact and opinion are all subject to interperation...That keeps an entire media industry in business!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A factual opinion?

 

 

[68volksy]

More skill for taildraggers? What a load of nonsense. A new skill perhaps but certainly not "more skill". And a new skill that only arises due to the things being harder to handle on the ground, in take-off and landing.

 

When did Boeing or Airbus last make a taildragger is all i can ask. The only reason you'd fly a taildragger is purely aesthetic (unless you're a red-bull pilot where 10grams of weight is the difference between winning and losing). I personally love the look of them on the ground - all eager to fly with their nose pointed skywards - but being more interested in flying than I am in landing, taking-off and taxiing it's pretty hard to justify the development of an all-new skill to achieve that purpose.

 

 

[dazza 38]

More skill for taildraggers? What a load of nonsense. A new skill perhaps but certainly not "more skill". And a new skill that only arises due to the things being harder to handle on the ground, in take-off and landing.When did Boeing or Airbus last make a taildragger is all i can ask. The only reason you'd fly a taildragger is purely aesthetic (unless you're a red-bull pilot where 10grams of weight is the difference between winning and losing). I personally love the look of them on the ground - all eager to fly with their nose pointed skywards - but being more interested in flying than I am in landing, taking-off and taxiing it's pretty hard to justify the development of an all-new skill to achieve that purpose.

Hi Volksy, I agree with you on being a new skill instead of more skill. But there is more to it than just being aesthetic IMO. If a person operated purely from rough landing areas, long grass etc.A tail dragger is the go.my 2 cents.

 

 

[68volksy]

I do agree dazza although there would no doubt be exceptions to the generalisation.

 

In the same vein if someone needed an aircraft to last 100,000 hours and 30-40,000 landings then it would seem nose wheel all the way is the current line of thinking.

 

 

[skyfox1]

Its going to be new to me all l have ever flown is a tail dragger it becomes second nature for take off and landing so when my zenith 701 is finished l will have to learn to fly a nose aircraft it will be a new skill.

 

 

[Guest nunans]

The only reason you'd fly a taildragger is purely aesthetic....... but being more interested in flying than I am in landing, taking-off and taxiing it's pretty hard to justify the development of an all-new skill to achieve that purpose.

I don't think conventional gear aircraft are designed that way for purely asthetic reasons at the expense of being a pain in the ass to take off, land, and taxi....

 

I guess it's a pleasure you have to experience to understand. When I fly, often the most fun part of all is getting off and back on the ground. They just seem right to me,

 

I think one of the big plusses of tri gear is that the aircraft when parked, is level with a level floor which makes it easier to load cargo etc and the nervous flying passengers feel more at ease walking down the level aisle much like the busses they are used to.

 

So to put it in your phrasing volksy,

 

The only reason you'd fly a trycicle is if you load your plane with a forklift or if the people flying in it don't like flying and are trying to imagine they are in a bus to calm the nerves..

 

Quickly slipping into my flac jacket .....

 

 

[Guest nunans]

Its going to be new to me all l have ever flown is a tail dragger it becomes second nature for take off and landing so when my zenith 701 is finished l will have to learn to fly a nose aircraft it will be a new skill.

The zenith will be able to rotate really early and the tail is so high up out of the way that it will be able to do a similar job to the tail dragger anyway. The tri gear stol aircraft (zenair, sav, foxbat etc) are at the utility end of the tri gears and probably reasonable alternatives to tail draggers at the end of the day.

 

You'll have no worries, though I think RAAus treat NW as a separate endorsement and not included on your license if you trained in a TW.

 

 

[408059]

We have a bit of thread drift.

 

I presume it's because we have no consensus on AUF Mk2. A pity because if CASA marches into the RAA and takes over, invited or not, short term or long term, then we need some sort of arrangement to support/preserve our hard won flying entitlements/benefits. I'm just a little concerned that the rag and tube flyers will be further marginalised. I have no doubt CASA could do a reasonable job of administering the plastic fantasic end. I'm making a big assumption that CASA will get involved, which of course may not happen given the outcome of the February meeting. Still, you should always plan.

 

Cheers

 

Steve

 

 

[Guest ratchet]

I presume it's because we have no consensus on AUF Mk2. A pity because if CASA marches into the RAA and takes over, invited or not, short term or long term, then we need some sort of arrangement to support/preserve our hard won flying entitlements/benefits. I'm just a little concerned that the rag and tube flyers will be further marginalised. I have no doubt CASA could do a reasonable job of administering the plastic fantasic end. I'm making a big assumption that CASA will get involved, which of course may not happen given the outcome of the February meeting. Still, you should always plan.

 

Cheers

 

Steve

 

I doubt very much if CASA will march into anything. There are always 2 competing forces in gvt--- first, bureaucrats

 

wanting to build empires to justify pay increases and promotions then gvts trying to cut budgets in noncore areas.

 

Health and education are core. They swell to swing the voters. No-one cares about aviation until something big

 

crashes. In the meantime aviation bureaucrats create new forms, terminology and sometimes new technology

 

but there is no real evidence these improve safety or even efficiencies.Yet they try their puny empire building anyway and only succeed in annoying most of us.

 

The next REAL challenge will be integrating drones and pilotless a/c into the ATC system. We'll just copy the USA

 

on that.

 

Will CASA absorb all or part of RAA? No way. The pollies will ask if anyone can fix things on the cheap and the

 

reason AUF/RAA were created were for cheaper rec aviation. A bit like asking the gvt to regulate scuba diving.

 

All this would change in a flash if an RAA fantastic plastic tried to skirt controlled airspace and nudged inside at

 

130knots, the old fart at the controls without a blood pressure check in 20 years has a "turn", climbs and

 

bangs into something big. Then look out.

 

 

[turboplanner]

We have a bit of thread drift.I presume it's because we have no consensus on AUF Mk2. A pity because if CASA marches into the RAA and takes over, invited or not, short term or long term, then we need some sort of arrangement to support/preserve our hard won flying entitlements/benefits. I'm just a little concerned that the rag and tube flyers will be further marginalised. I have no doubt CASA could do a reasonable job of administering the plastic fantasic end. I'm making a big assumption that CASA will get involved, which of course may not happen given the outcome of the February meeting. Still, you should always plan.

 

Cheers

 

Steve

I wouldn't count on ANYTHING right now with almost the entire system in an unsatisfactory turmoil, demonstrated fatalities resulting from procedural issues, and with an ongoing unsatisfactory safety culture.

 

The most likely outcome from the slightest slip up will be that you will not control your sport.

 

There are bigger eyes on this than most people think.