What really happened to the Concord?

[Teckair]

Some more information about the crash.

 

http://www.askthepilot.com/untold-concorde-story/

 

 

[Sapphire]

I've never flown an airline transport a/c but there seems to be situations where crew know litttle of what is going on. They can't see the wing on fire or smell the smoke filling the cargo hold because the plane is so big. Why not have more cameras? From my experience, regularily flying a/c out of the flight envelope is commonplace in commercial operations. I met the captain of the first first 747 to crash which was at Nairobi. He was a little guy sitting in the kitchen of a gliding club and I thought at first he was some wide eyed member of the public waiting for a joy flight. He told me the flaps, slats, etc were correctly chosen but the flaps did not move and he had no indication of that so took off with no flaps. Around 82 people were killed and although he was given no blame, he was grounded with pay.

 

With regard to the Concord there were countless holes in the cheeze that lined up all at once. Planes rarely crash based on one fault.

 

 

[facthunter]

Think I would take the bit about no flap indication with a pinch of salt. You select the flap and watch it run. You check your slats etc at the same time. You even have an alternate method of extending flaps/slats You have smoke detectors and fire warnings everywhere. . Nev

 

 

[Sapphire]

I know the inside of a 747 cockpit like I know the other side of my belly button. He told me that changes were made after that accident to give the pilots better indication of flap position.

 

 

[facthunter]

I can't recall anything of size that doesn't have an adequate indication of flap position. IF you can't see it you have to know. I can't imagine anything being certified above a really basic plane where it wouldn't happen. You have flap assymetry protection etc leading edge devices have lights to show agreement with the selected position.. You have to know your flaps are at certain psoitions as you have limiting speeds for each setting, as well as stall speeds for same. The 707 was probably the best of all the intercontinental jetliners of the period, and apart from a bit of dutch roll at approach speeds was really the goods. Nev

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

Annunciator panels are one thing but you can't beat the tiny (20g) lightweight aircraft quality cameras and transmitters that are installed nowadays, even inside some parts of the turbines. Concorde era technology still used tungsten globes and heat detectors...

 

I've walked thru Concorde on the ground incl the flight deck a few times and I don't remember any cams showing systems, you can't beat actually being able to see what's going on.

 

Friends have recently even installed cams to show whether retract doors on their LSA amphibs are closed, and they're lighter than the mirrors they had before...

 

 

[facthunter]

The Concorde was old technology for sure , but they made it work. some of the parts were from planes 20 years older. The way it operated was a tribute to the training and enthusiasm of the crews.. The Boeing SST did not eventuate although it used more modern metallurgy. The TU 144 did not crash due to any fault of the plane itself, at Paris. but that's another story. Nev

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Off Topic ( slightly. . . . I'm not buying in to any argument about what happened to Concorde, I am assuming that you mean the French disaster. . . . ) But on a rather lighter note, I've just had a look at a home made four string banjo, which was built using parts of a Rolls Royce, car, plus bits from the ship QE2, and FINALLY, . . . . some metal components from Concorde. . . . . ( not from a crashed one. . . from one of the factories which built them. . .) Picture can be uploaded if any of you are aeronautically musical. . . . .

 

( well, I DID say. . . . " On a lighter note. . . . . ! )

 

Phil

 

 

[planedriver]

The Concorde was old technology for sure , but they made it work. some of the parts were from planes 20 years older. The way it operated was a tribute to the training and enthusiasm of the crews.. The Boeing SST did not eventuate although it used more modern metallurgy. The TU 144 did not crash due to any fault of the plane itself, at Paris. but that's another story. Nev

I was a bit involved with the Concord engine test rig at RAE Farnborough, supplying and fitting special photoelectric smoke/fire detection units to the exhaust ducts out the back of the Olympus engines, which were turned to a vertical position and out through the roof to reduce the noise levels.

 

With regard to the TU144 crash, the story that was related to me sometime later, was that espionage had been rife in the early days, and Russia had much of the original design details. The original design of the wing was not up to the mark and consequently re-designed, security had been much improved, leaving the Russians with the original design. It seems more than a coincidence that both aircraft were being made at around the same time, and both the appearance and dimensions were so very similar.

 

I'm obviously not in any position to say whether that was the case or not, but that was the story circulating after the event.

 

I was fortunate enough to get a ride back from Bahrain to Heathrow in a Concorde back in 1976 after doing some work for British Airways, and that was a lot more exciting that the Trident flight on the outbound journey.

 

Still don't know why they had frosted glass in the toilet window, after all, no ones going to see you at 65,000ft and if they do, who cares?

 

BA did close to 50,000 flights with them while they were in service. Thank god I never got stuck with the fuel bill.

 

Just that crackling roar as they raced down the runway used to make the hair on back stand up. The VC10 was the same.

 

Bloody noisey, but still a thing of beauty.

 

 

[skeptic36]

Off Topic Phil

Yeah, I don't mind mate, but wasn't this you:

What do you do if you are suffering from unexpected DRIFT when you're flying lads and lassies ?? WELL, I usually change the way my flight appliance is pointing,. . . . AND corrrect the situation.

 

Don't you all think it's high time this happened, as, being an old fat POM, who learned to fly in AUSTRALIA. . . . I'm geting a tad P****d off, listening to people rambling on and bleeding their guts about something which has got ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the thread to which we are supposed to be commenting upon, HOPEFULLY to educate the person who started the aforementioned thread with a genuine question or subject.

 

Lets help the questionist and stay on track people, isn't this why all of us old farts are here ? I dunno. If you REALLY WANT someone to start a "LET'S HAVE A GRIPE ABOUT EVERYTHING" THREAD, then I will,

 

If you really want me to.

 

Just the other day over here.

 

Like I said, I don't mind a bit of drift, sometimes it's unavoidable, but you know what they say about people in glass houses

 

Regards Bill

 

 

[Sapphire]

Yeah, I don't mind mate, but wasn't this you:What do you do if you are suffering from unexpected DRIFT when you're flying lads and lassies ?? WELL, I usually change the way my flight appliance is pointing,. . . . AND corrrect the situation.

Don't you all think it's high time this happened, as, being an old fat POM, who learned to fly in AUSTRALIA. . . . I'm geting a tad P****d off, listening to people rambling on and bleeding their guts about something which has got ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the thread to which we are supposed to be commenting upon, HOPEFULLY to educate the person who started the aforementioned thread with a genuine question or subject.

 

Lets help the questionist and stay on track people, isn't this why all of us old farts are here ? I dunno. If you REALLY WANT someone to start a "LET'S HAVE A GRIPE ABOUT EVERYTHING" THREAD, then I will,

 

If you really want me to.

 

Just the other day over here.

 

Like I said, I don't mind a bit of drift, sometimes it's unavoidable, but you know what they say about people in glass houses

 

Regards Bill

 

 

Are you the leading star in "Les Miserables"?

 

 

[skeptic36]

Are you the leading star in "Les Miserables"?

ullo ullo ullo, what have we here, another thread drifter:cops:

 

 

[Sapphire]

ullo ullo ullo, what have we here, another thread drifter:cops:

 

I am just relying to your drifted thread:idea:

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Are you the leading star in "Les Miserables"?

No, Can't sing, OR speak very good French but point well made Bill. ( head retracted ) I can feel a new thread coming on. . . . . wait for it . . . . Musical instruments made from old ships tractors and aircraft ?

 

The original Concorde crash report was riddled with unanswered questions, later versions have raised many apparently more than valid points, calling into serious question. Whether indeed "politics" were behind this will be, no doubt, continually debated but probably never proven. As wilth the Tenerife incident, where one report pointed the finger directly at the Dutch Captain, whereas the other ( Dutch version ) virtually exonerated him, as he WAS their hero worshipped top man. But in that particular instance, there was an interesting paragraph which debated whether the quoted RVR at the time was below operational minima for BOTH aircraft operators; and possibly the airport too. . . . )

 

I cannot for the life of me understand why the Concorde fleet was disposed of with such unseemly haste, when Richard Branson wanted to buy a few of them and continue flying. . . .More Politics ?

 

We'll probably never get the answer to that one until the cabinet papers become public domain after thirty years, just like the Falklands stuff is all coming out now.

 

 

[Sapphire]

I've seen many written and movie reports on the Tenerife accident. They all show one common thing-the captain of the Dutch airliner took off without a take off clearance. All sorts of dopy excuses were made by his airline, but accidents like this can be followed by litany of ovious lies and red herrings, hoping some will stick. The fog, poor communication, lack of ground radar all contributed, but if the Dutch captain [who was queried by his co-pilot] did not take off without a clearance there would not have been an accident.

 

My information is that the Concord was disposed of because of lack of business after the crash. There was pleny of warning that a crash would eventually happen. Tyres had burst before penetrating the fuselage and a fuel leak developed once. However it did not catch fire. The shock proof insulation etc installed after the crash was too late. Nobody wanted to fly in that poorly managed death trap.

 

 

[eightyknots]

Some more information about the crash.http://www.askthepilot.com/untold-concorde-story/

A good read. There was quite a bit of info that I had not heard via the media before.

 

 

[Guernsey]

I believe that the frosted glass in the toilet windows was to prevent people from sitting longer than necessary just enjoying the view whilst others were waiting to use the loo, sort of like reading a book in the toilet.

 

Alan.

 

 

[Phil Perry]

[quote="Sapphire, post: 262959, member: 1999"

 

My information is that the Concord was disposed of because of lack of business after the crash. There was pleny of warning that a crash would eventually happen. Tyres had burst before penetrating the fuselage and a fuel leak developed once. However it did not catch fire. The shock proof insulation etc installed after the crash was too late. Nobody wanted to fly in that poorly managed death trap.

 

Still. . . . . .it wasn't really TOO bad an overall safety record though was it ?? . . . . . . I wonder how many other large passenger jet aircraft types could claim a fatality - free flying record exceeding thirty years ?

 

I really enjoyed MY flight around the Bay of Biscay in one, . . . Best £600 I ever spent.

 

Happy New Year to all

 

Phil

 

 

[facthunter]

Terms like"poorly managed death trap" add little to the debate. Considering the critical nature of it's operating environment , it is a tribute to the skill and discipline of the operating crews that it had such a long accident free record. Nev

 

 

[eightyknots]

Terms like"poorly managed death trap" add little to the debate. Considering the critical nature of it's operating environment , it is a tribute to the skill and discipline of the operating crews that it had such a long accident free record. Nev

I completely agree. There are few popular airliners that had such an unblemished safety record for so long as the Concorde.

 

 

The Concorde is such a beautiful aircraft.

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

My favourite pic of Concorde, Copyright Harm Rutten (available for purchase from Airliners.net) - note the tailwheels.

 

 

 

[Sapphire]

The Concord could be compared to the DC 10. The cargo bay doors were it's achilles heel and some quick fixes never really solved the problem. The concord as well had an ongoing problem with tyres blowing which became lethal when bits of rubber could penetrate the fuselage. Otherwise, both a/c were considered to perform well. The concord overcame many incredible engineering obstacles to fly over mach one and still be able to fly slow enough to land at conventional airports. That feat would make it one of the seven wonders of the world. However, the re-occuring problem of the tyres was never solved, and re-occuring problems in aviation left unsolved, to me, is poor management. The end result is as I described-it became a death trap.

 

Another example a/c is the 747 which has been a very safe workhorse for decades, yet one blew up leaving New York. Faulty electrical wiring allowed high voltage into the fuel tank wireing and a spark was produced. Because the tank was nearly empty, fuel vapours had developed of just the right concentration to support ignition. I think wiring modifications were implimented and no more a/c have blown up. The problem was correctly managed.

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

The concord overcame many incredible engineering obstacles to fly over mach one and still be able to fly slow enough to land at conventional airports.

Over Mach one certainly, and cruising at over Mach 2....