Cheap 2 seater anyone?

[Head in the clouds]

Thanks folks.

 

Fear not, the project has not only been developing, if a little slowly, but has taken a potentially huge step forward in that we may have a 'sponsor' who could help to bring this to fruition, and at an even lower price than I had envisioned. Due to the ongoing negotiations I can't say much more just yet although I'll certainly be able to tell a lot more, either way, fairly soon.

 

So your comments are quite timely, and others of you with an interest please make mention of what you think about it too, the interested party is reading this site. The project we're negotiating about is the yellow and green folding tail biplane - I posted images of a couple of pages ago, so anyone with comments, good or bad, please post them, and don't be afraid of repeating what you've said earlier, thanks.

 

Sorry for the suspense but hopefully it will be very worthwhile for bringing back affordable flying, and soon.

 

 

[Bandit12]

We wait with baited breath......

 

Have you and the other party looked at the market for a biplane? Personally I love them and would have little difficulty spending the rest of aviating days in only biplanes, but that may not be to everybody's taste. I can see from the point of view of the folding tail/trailer option the necessity of the bipe, but is there a big enough market for one? This was probably mentioned before, but my mind is like a sieve most days.....

 

 

[ave8rr]

Thanks folks.

Good to hear that you have some good interest in the project Alan.

 

I thought things had gone a bit quite since the issue with the Troll but seems alot of people are still following this thread with great interest.

 

Keep up the good work.

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

Good to hear that you have some good interest in the project Alan.I thought things had gone a bit quite since the issue with the Troll but seems alot of people are still following this thread with great interest.

 

Keep up the good work.

Thanks Mike. Looking back it was quite funny really, I received the expression of interest by PM just a couple of days after the troll thing and so I assumed it was the troll playing his games again. So I politely gave the interested party the brush off! Gladly he persisted and introduced me to a local friend who vouched for his credentials ...

 

On another note, and regarding something of a revival of the more affordable branch of aviation, I've been chatting with David Young, who for a couple of years ran an internet eZine called Flying for Fun and which I thought was excellent. David also ran Perth's Superlight Aircraft Club of WA (SLACWA) club magazine for several years and it was of equally high standard. Anyway when I tracked David down again a couple of months ago I asked if the FfF mag was still running and he'd not had time, or received sufficient advertisers to keep it going and was concentrating on his other writings.

 

David was kind enough to send me all the past copies of both mags on a disc and has given consent to re-publish anything from them, which I will start doing shortly when pressure of work eases up a bit. But far more exciting, David, who is a dyed-in-the-wool Rag and Tube man has agreed to get a new mag called Rag and Tube up and running. David is currently doing an advanced writing (or whatever it's called) course at uni and is using the development of the new mag as his thesis, he sent me a copy of the cover which looks great, and it's dated July 2013, so maybe that's his target publication date.

 

The main point is David can't spend all his time writing for this new mag so he's said it's to be a reader contribution type of affair, so Light Flyers, get writing about your exploits! And also finding articles about the ultralight side of things, historical maybe, building, designing, whatever's good reading. Maybe Flyerme will agree to serialisation of Jack's diary to get things rolling?

 

 

[Pilot Pete]

I truely think there is a market for a small plane that can seat two and be transported easily due to its folding fuselage and be stored at home in a small space (hangerage costs can be very high and restrictive) ande have a very unique look. Rag and tube construction seems to be one of the easiest and cheapest forms of aircraft building and therefore one of the easiest ways for a person to have themselves an aircraft,building wise.

 

Since I am a rag and tube builder myself I maybe biased, but there you have it.

 

 

[Bandit12]

Maybe ask Ian if you can put the articles up as resources on the site? It would be a good way of ensuring that the information can't get lost and is readily available.

 

 

[DGL Fox]

Yes the bi plane idea is really good, can't wait to see more of it Alan.

 

David

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

Just so I don't get accused of holding out a tease on two fronts at the same time I'll try and upload an HTML page of what I think was David Young's first edition of the FFF magazine. Frankly I think it's a remarkable piece of work for a one-man publication and following his uni courses I'm sure they'll be even better. If the upload works this is page three of the six page January 2010 edition. Comments most welcome please folks. Please note that the links don't work on the pages because it's an HTML file and the other pages referred to aren't there...

 

Damn, can't upload an HTML file here. I'll see what can be done to convert it to something non-interactive. I was able to 'print' my aircraft build log so maybe I can do something like that.

 

Still within the editing time... try again - nope the file is too large, just a one page pdf, I'll try again...

 

 

 

[bexrbetter]

I don't know HITC, I thought it was going to look more modern?

 

.

 

 

 

[Teckair]

Good to see progress is still happening.

 

 

[DGL Fox]

I truely think there is a market for a small plane that can seat two and be transported easily due to its folding fuselage and be stored at home in a small space (hangerage costs can be very high and restrictive) ande have a very unique look.

That's why I love the Gazelle and aircraft like them, you can fold the wings put them in a trailer and store them at home or if you want to go somewhere and don't want to fly there you can hook up the trailer and off you go, great idea I think to make flying more affordable but with modern design that brings with it new airframe and engine and of course safety..

Now if you could get a factory built one and registered as a #24 that would be great for people like me who have no idea how to build an aircraft...

 

David

 

 

[Pilot Pete]

Progress report HITC ???????

 

 

[ruffasguts]

Thanks Mike. Looking back it was quite funny really, I received the expression of interest by PM just a couple of days after the troll thing and so I assumed it was the troll playing his games again. So I politely gave the interested party the brush off! Gladly he persisted and introduced me to a local friend who vouched for his credentials ...On another note, and regarding something of a revival of the more affordable branch of aviation, I've been chatting with David Young, who for a couple of years ran an internet eZine called Flying for Fun and which I thought was excellent. David also ran Perth's Superlight Aircraft Club of WA (SLACWA) club magazine for several years and it was of equally high standard. Anyway when I tracked David down again a couple of months ago I asked if the FfF mag was still running and he'd not had time, or received sufficient advertisers to keep it going and was concentrating on his other writings.

 

David was kind enough to send me all the past copies of both mags on a disc and has given consent to re-publish anything from them, which I will start doing shortly when pressure of work eases up a bit. But far more exciting, David, who is a dyed-in-the-wool Rag and Tube man has agreed to get a new mag called Rag and Tube up and running. David is currently doing an advanced writing (or whatever it's called) course at uni and is using the development of the new mag as his thesis, he sent me a copy of the cover which looks great, and it's dated July 2013, so maybe that's his target publication date.

 

The main point is David can't spend all his time writing for this new mag so he's said it's to be a reader contribution type of affair, so Light Flyers, get writing about your exploits! And also finding articles about the ultralight side of things, historical maybe, building, designing, whatever's good reading. Maybe Flyerme will agree to serialisation of Jack's diary to get things rolling?

as usual iam a bit behind the times but there is already a mag called Rag and Tube put out by the Antique Aircraft Association of Australia

 

Mick

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

as usual iam a bit behind the times but there is already a mag called Rag and Tube put out by the Antique Aircraft Association of Australia

 

Mick

Thanks Mick, I thought I'd seen a mag with that name somewhere, then guessed it must have been one from USA. I'll let David know and he'll probably go back to the name of his previous publication - Flying For Fun. Cheers, Alan.

 

Progress report HITC ???????

Thanks Peter - fear not, an announcement is imminent!

 

Maybe ask Ian if you can put the articles up as resources on the site? It would be a good way of ensuring that the information can't get lost and is readily available.

Good thinking Bandit, I'll do that.

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

No news yet, but it's still progressing.

 

Meanwhile the shape continues to evolve, all comments welcome -

 

 

 

 

[Pilot Pete]

Cute. Im still trying to figure out how the tail swings to one side without disconnecting controls.

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

Cute. Im still trying to figure out how the tail swings to one side without disconnecting controls.

Thanks. I'm doing the CAD work on the folding concept at this very moment. Won't be long before I can show it, sorry for the drawn out tease, not intended ...

 

Speaking of teases, no-one ever did answer the Henry Ford question about why folks could have a Model T in any colour as long as it was black. There were two reasons, both related. As you'd know old Henry was the inventor of the production line process and was fanatical about efficiency, it was the only way to bring the automobile to the masses. And black paint dried quicker than any other colour. Not only that but in those days the paint was enamel and it was oven baked (baked enamel) once it had dried sufficiently to be heated without running. And - black could be baked at a far higher temperature, hence quicker, than other colours which got charred at higher temperatures.

 

 

[DGL Fox]

Looking good, can't wait to see your finished project

 

David

 

 

[bexrbetter]

And - black could be baked at a far higher temperature, hence quicker, than other colours which got charred at higher temperatures.

Maybe he just charred the cars!

 

 

[rtfm]

Hi,

 

I have only just stumbled across this thread today. Don't know where I've been hiding...

 

As HITC mentioned very early on, there was a protracted discussion about whether it was possible to design a really inexpensive Part 103 plane on another forum (which will remain nameless, to protect the innocent). Much discussion on materials, basic design (pusher/tractor/tailwheel/trike/2-stroke/4-stroke etc). A lot of sharp minds there, but no consensus.

 

For my part, I proposed a "profile fuselage" concept. Basically, a sheet of 100mm foam, cut to a pleasing profile, glassed, and with wings, engine and undercarriage bolted on. I got as far as actually building the fuselage, and then got enthused about my Razorback design, and put the profile concept aside. It is still hanging on my workshop wall.

 

If you're looking for SIMPLE, cheap and quick, this will take a lot of beating. The airframe is a single composite piece - what is simpler than that? And you can build it in a weekend. Once the fuselage has been glassed, you add the wing, any engine up to about 55kg and bolt on the undercarriage. Some controls, and that's basically it.

 

There are some structural details to work through yet, but I still think the concept has promise.

 

My 2c

 

Duncan

 

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

Speaking of teases, no-one ever did answer the Henry Ford question about why folks could have a Model T in any colour as long as it was black. There were two reasons, both related. As you'd know old Henry was the inventor of the production line process and was fanatical about efficiency, it was the only way to bring the automobile to the masses. And black paint dried quicker than any other colour. Not only that but in those days the paint was enamel and it was oven baked (baked enamel) once it had dried sufficiently to be heated without running. And - black could be baked at a far higher temperature, hence quicker, than other colours which got charred at higher temperatures.

Great story but according to Ford's own website "any colour as long as its black" is a myth !

 

http://media.ford.com/article_pdf.cfm?article_id=28558

 

Sorry !

 

John

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

Great story but according to Ford's own website "any colour as long as its black" is a myth !http://media.ford.com/article_pdf.cfm?article_id=28558

Sorry !

 

John

I'd have been interested but your link doesn't work. You might like to have a look at some period photos dating from the first production of the Model T up until the late 1930s. You'll notice that just about all cars, not just Fords, were black. Monochrome photography perhaps?

 

Edit - Ah, I got it to open once my Avast killed the embedded trojan horse or whatever it is.

 

Well they say that the 20% of cars that were painted in other colours were so dark that they were almost indiscernible from black, so I guess that would be the oven charring that I understood was the problem with any coloured baked enamel.

 

 

[Pilot Pete]

Ok HITC, you've had long enough.............. how about a few tidbits to keep us going.

 

 

[Bandit12]

Damn straight....us natives are getting restless

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

Orrright it's a fair cop.

 

Things have been plodding along, not as fast as I'd like but even so the progress is good.

 

First face-to-face discussions lasting a week were had with the 'interested party' about getting the manufacturing done in a big way to get the costs right down. All the necessary aspects are available including the funding but we're still working on the details.

 

The CAD modelling is progressing well, and as fast as I can, given that I have to do it between my full-time work, but I'm pleased with how it's working out. It's quite a battle though, keeping it very short to fit trailerable dimensions when folded, and still being able to get in and out of it easily. The interior is really quite large, bigger volume and taller than almost all LSAs but the maximum dimensions I can get for the door frame will mean a bit of technique getting in and out, but it's not as tight as some. At least there are good handhold positions to assist with it.

 

In addition to the design work and planning for a prototype build I'm starting the research of the current process for getting a kit Approval - if anyone's been through it and is willing to pass on their experiences I'd be very grateful.

 

Some of you may have noticed I posted a thread asking for a damaged prop so that a friend could run a 503 that's been standing unused for too long. Member Howe very kindly offered a 60x42 Sweetapple that's in fine condition for the giveaway price of $100. My friend is still battling financially so I said I'd buy it for him to look after the engine and it just shows how one good turn immediately brings another because the friend offered me the engine to use for the prototype of the Cheap 2 Seater. Ideally it would have 60-80hp but the 50hp 503 will do fine for initial testing.

 

We tried to run the engine last weekend and glad to say the inside looks and turns over like new, no signs of any moisture inside, gladly the owner has been turning it over by hand for the last couple of years while it's been sitting still. But - there's no spark. It's a DCDI and neither ignition unit is putting anything out. The whole engine needs a clean-up so I've stripped the fan shrouds off, carbies, exhaust, recoil starter etc. The last 503 I had was equipped with a stator and points, and a pair of coils for single ignition so I don't know about the electronic ignition units on this one - anyone an expert out there please?

 

The 'interested party' (hopefully the discussions will be concluded and agreed soon and he can be given a name) has also requested a name for the Cheap 2 Seater, for ease of discussion as much as anything, so we've called it the Dragonfly for now (Dragonflies have four wings and fly slow and dash about - gettit?), unless anyone has a better idea?

 

Just so you know I haven't been slacking off here are a few images to keep the appetite whetted. For obvious reasons I don't want to give away too much detail just yet but you'll see the general idea. The folding is very simple and will be as quick as I first suggested. The cabin and tail feather structures are all tube and gusset/bracket rivetted and/or bolted and the wings are all pop rivetted, so it should be an exceptionally simple kit to assemble even for first-timers with two left hands and hardly any tools. I'm envisioning the kit to be a 'quick build' as well, so that everything that's left for the builder to do is self-jigging.

 

I've also made a preliminary jig for forming the truss ribs, it's not hardened but will do to make a full set of ribs for the prototype, and I made a single bay section of wing for testing and strength/weight analysis, it's worked out very well, and is another easy assembly method for the homebuilder.

 

Note that everything shown in the CAD images is still a work-in-progress, so don't worry about that doesn't look strong enough and all that, none of it is finished yet ...

 

Comments invited and welcome as always, thanks.