Time limit on Rotax Engines

[Vev]

If a 912 is still running very well and inside TBO, say 800 hrs .. what is the importance of TTIS as it reachers its calendar life?

 

Can this engine be used in a hire and reward situation or is it now limited to private use or is it all over and ready for an overhaul?

 

Cheers

 

Vev

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

The overhaul is due whenever either the calendar life expires or the hours limit is reached (whichever is reached first)

 

The routine servicing is the same - due at 100 hours or 12 months whichever is first.

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

[Gentreau]

But I think the question is, "Is it obligatory or recommended ?"

 

 

[Vev]

The overhaul is due whenever either the calendar life expires or the hours limit is reached (whichever is reached first)The routine servicing is the same - due at 100 hours or 12 months whichever is first.

Cheers

 

John

Thanks John

 

So you are saying there is no option to run a Rotax engine on condition beyond its calendar life despite how many TBO hours it has in the bank be it private or hire?

 

Cheers

 

Vev

 

 

[Vev]

i,m confused Vev... what do u mean by çalendar life?

Hey CFI,

 

Rotax engines have a use by date, i.e. 10, 12 years etc this depends on the model. They also have a TBO time before rebuild.

 

Lets say you have an engine that has a TBO of 1500 hours but has only done 800 hours in use ... but it 15 years old and has a 12 year calendar life.

 

The question is can you continue to run this engine past its calendar life or not and is there any limitations, that is, private or airwork?

 

Cheers

 

Vev

 

 

[Guest nunans]

i'm no authority but my understanding is that the calender life and the hours in service life hold equal weight so it's which ever comes first (it's only five years for a two stroke) there would be alot of ra aircraft with expired calendar life engines fitted as most don't do many hours each year

 

 

[Mriya]

Connecting all the dots from the Q & A's in this thread, manufacturers call for an engine overhaul based on TTIS or calendar time, WHICHEVER COMES FIRST. If either of these limits is overrun the engine is now being used 'ON CONDITION'. Engines operated 'on condition' are not allowed to be used for 'hire & reward' or in a flying school.

 

In short operating an engine 'on condition' is a concession allowable for private aircraft owners only.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Very correct answer there Mriya...I can't do any better.....!!!.........................Maj...

 

 

[503]

On condition that you try to be careful to fly only where you can land !

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Hey CFI,Rotax engines have a use by date, i.e. 10, 12 years etc this depends on the model. They also have a TBO time before rebuild.

Lets say you have an engine that has a TBO of 1500 hours but has only done 800 hours in use ... but it 15 years old and has a 12 year calendar life.

 

The question is can you continue to run this engine past its calendar life or not and is there any limitations, that is, private or airwork?

 

Cheers

 

Vev

Hiya Vev,. . . . . .

 

Sorry to be a nitpicking git, BUT ( oh dear, he's going to be anyway. . . . sigh . . .)

 

You're talking about TBR ( time before rebuild, ) and using the wrong initials. TBO actually means ( or it does when I have to do it ) T - ime B - efore O - my God, that's going to cost a $hitload of bucks . . . sob . . . . . ( or was it, Overhaul. . . . I dunno, my brain hurts. . . )

 

Phil

 

 

[Phil Perry]

ACTUALLY. . . .

 

I'm fascinated by how things actually work nowadays in OZ. I left a long loooong time ago, and only flew GA appliances, because there were no alternatives. Oh sure, I tried a hang glider, but after a landing on a fence after jumping of a ridge in the Marburg range, almost flattening the family jewels, I sold that and bought a new ham radio rig.

 

I'd really like to get some information about the two ( three ? ) disciplines which now pervade in the land of Australian pilotage. . . . . and noticing all these reg numbers on A/C pics I've seen posted, does this mean that the ultralight bods are not deemed fit to carry a VH reg ?? why not ??

 

All these questions and more, and if nobody cares to post a nice long explanation, I'll have to sit heare for another year of late nights in the hangar picking up snippets by default. She Who Must Be Obeyed will not like this much but at least I guess I'll get out of those D.I.Y. jobs she keeps going on about. . . . .

 

Phil

 

 

[Sapphire]

To fly Vh you need to cary out the highest standard maintenance by lic mechanic and be suitably trained. Raa number designation can vary from Vh standard to non mechanically minded "greasy Joe" maintaining his own a/c with warning plaquards in his a/c.

 

 

[Vev]

Hiya Vev,. . . . . .Sorry to be a nitpicking git, BUT ( oh dear, he's going to be anyway. . . . sigh . . .)

 

You're talking about TBR ( time before rebuild, ) and using the wrong initials. TBO actually means ( or it does when I have to do it ) T - ime B - efore O - my God, that's going to cost a $hitload of bucks . . . sob . . . . . ( or was it, Overhaul. . . . I dunno, my brain hurts. . . )

 

Phil

Hi Phil,

 

LoL ... No problems mate ... I should have used the right words for the acronym.

 

TBO = Time Before Overhaul = 5hitload of bucks as you put it so well.

 

Cheers

 

Vev

 

 

[Guest Error404]

Please be careful with bold statements about private use and hire and reward.

 

Please find me the regulation that says you can't use an on condition engine in a flying school? If that was the case then most 2-stroke Thrusters and similar would be grounded given their 300? hour TBO.

 

I also understand that GA aircraft can be used on-condition for awk or flying school operations but not in Charter category.

 

If someone definitively knows if this is incorrect please say so or forever hold your peace!

 

 

[Sapphire]

I understand everything except the part after "Please be careful"

 

 

[Vev]

Please be careful with bold statements about private use and hire and reward.Please find me the regulation that says you can't use an on condition engine in a flying school? If that was the case then most 2-stroke Thrusters and similar would be grounded given their 300? hour TBO.

 

I also understand that GA aircraft can be used on-condition for awk or flying school operations but not in Charter category.

 

If someone definitively knows if this is incorrect please say so or forever hold your peace!

Hi Error,

 

May I ask you to turn your question around 180 deg.. can you demonstrate where in the Reg it says you can run on condition in a flying school for reward in RAA?.

 

cheers

 

Vev

 

 

[Guest Error404]

http://www.casa.gov.au/scripts/nc.dll?WCMS:OLDASSET::svPath=/airworth/AWB/85/,svFileName=004.pdf

 

http://www.casa.gov.au/ADFiles/enggen/eng/ENG-004.pdf

 

read these articles which I hope are the correct ones that I have posted and then remember back a few years when Michael Poole started with the raa and allegedly grounded 90% of 2- strokes in raa flying schools because they were over tbo and the raa very quickly changed the ops manual I believe it was. That's the extent of my knowledge on that matter other than to say that pv-airwork versus charter have different obligations, ga flying schools are pvt/awk and raa operations I believe mimick the GA arrangement. Happy to be re-educated and take this with a grain of salt in case it is incorrect !! - no warranty implied with this statement of any kind.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Error404, I'm not going to go chasing it for you, but I believe if you look through the ops manual it'll be there !.....Besides, with a time exepired engine on board you insurance coverage will be null and void, if the shit hits the fan. Just common-sense really, and besides, what CFI worth his salt is going to solo someone with a TX engine ??. unless the thought of jail is attractive to him/her....................................Cheers........ Maj...

 

 

[planesmaker]

does any one read the tech manual??? here's the link. actually it should be the first place people go for an answer, saves a lot of misinformation yhat way.

 

http://dev.raa.asn.au/documents/techmanual/4-2-5.pdf

 

 

[Guest Error404]

Thanks Tom for the link, most helpful.

 

Maj - insurance is not null and void with an engine on condition, never has and as far as I know won't be in the near future, we would have heard about it.

 

The CFI in theory has no input into an engine being operatef when time expired as it is the responsibility of the maintenance organisation. For example a foreign student at Bankstowns biggest flying school would have no idea an engine was time expired and not would his instructor.

 

A particular flyin school that I am aware of runs their GA engines 10-15% over TBO, which is not unusual but can't be the case for Charter operations such as a Chieftan or similar.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Maj - insurance is not null and void with an engine on condition, never has and as far as I know won't be in the near future, we would have heard about it. :Quote.....Error 404

 

Error404, Why don't you go ahead and try it for us !.........you may get away with it on a private aircraft, but you certainly won't get away with it on a trainer or hire aircraft, and certainly not if your insurance company is looking at a huge lawsuit payout, on a deceased solo student, or innocent passenger on a hire aircraft. They'd be looking for a way out quicker than a rat in a snake cage, and that would be the perfect excuse for them.

 

Personally as an unlimited L2 I don't, and wouldn't sign out a TX engine on a trainer or for hire aircraft, period. If you want to make money out of an aircraft that you'll be putting paying passengers or students in, then spend the money for a good engine..It doesn't sound like you've delt much first hand, with aviation insurance companies either ..................................................Maj...

 

 

 

[Guest Error404]

Our fleet is maintained by LAME's and not Level 2's so we are talking chalk and cheese anyway. I agree to disagree with you. For the record I have never heard of a LAME or L2 running an oil filter for 100 hours with 50 hourly oil changes or for that matter, changing the oil at 100 hours under any circumstances. If anything I would be worried about a law suit for engine maintenance under those circumstances. If you did that in the GA world a LAME's career would be short lived indeed.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

A LAME can't sign off an RAA trainer, or for hire, it must be a Level 2, unless of course you LAME is a Level 2 ?...........................................................Maj...

 

 

[Guest Error404]

Obtaining an L2 for a LAME is just a formality really. Our LAME's have also been known to give out references so that L2's can obtain their maintenance certificate. If we want to compare LaME's to L2's I'm happy to start another thread.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

I'm both so it wouldn't make any difference. It still has to be an L2 signiture with RAAus number in the log books, not a LAMEs.....................................Maj...