Very Dangerous things I've seen . . .

[Phil Perry]

Not so much a safety comment but someone once said to me the beaver has a single big nut holding on the propand that the torque specification was a several metre long spanner and 6 pairs of hands hanging from it.

Bit like Rolls Royce cars engineering information then, . . . . "Using a twelve inch tommy bar, apply ADEQUATE FORCE to tighten the bolt" . . . . They never tell you just HOW adequate though. . . . .

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Someone told me recently that the RAAF was an ADEQUATE force. . . . . . ? Dunno.

 

 

[River]

Parachutists - GA Fixed Wing Aircraft and Helicopters...

 

Up until a couple of years back there was a loophole in the regs that allowed parachuting onto a reasonable large park just south of the Walter Taylor road bridge across the Brisbane river at Indooroopilly, Brisbane.

 

 

This bridge is also a reference point for entry and departure north from Archerfield GA airport.

 

As I live nearby and have quite a full view of this entire airspace I was always amazed to see up to 5 or 8 parachutist jumping out from what looked like either 5000 or possible 10000 ft and free falling down to around 3000 ft and then doing various maneuvers or 'spirals' right down to the park.

 

 

Many a time I observed fixed wing GA aircraft flying straight through the parachutist as they opened their chutes!

 

 

My final straw broke when a group of some 7 parachutists were free falling when a Hughes (Now MD500's) I think, helicopter came fanging out of Archerfield and flew straight through the middle of the parachutist as they were opening their chutes... It was that close I fully expected a mid-air.

 

I contact the local CASA bloke immediately at Archerfield and made a complaint re this incident and that of the early near misses. He indicate he was aware of the issue but that until someone made a format complaint his hands were tried due to the loophole in the regs. It only took about 3 months and no more parachuting was seen.

 

 

My biggest issue was that if an aircraft/helo had a mid-air with a parachutist, the aircraft would no doubt bang into a residential house with serious repercussions not only to the local residents, the aircraft and its POB plus the parachutist but also our aviation reputation.

 

 

I can just see the media having a total field day with this type of incident...

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Hiya River. . . .

 

Gotta be honest. I used to fly out of Archerfield quite a lot, but I really don't remember the Walter Taylor Bridge, was this built post 1982 ? I know the Story Bridge, as I got fined a hundred and twenty bucks for doing wheelie accross it's entire length on my bike. . . ! ( another tale. . .) I never heard of it as a VRP anyway, but I see your point, we often get GA as wellas Microlight pilots flying through the overheads of not only published active parachuting sites, but winch - launch Glider sites as well. With the easy and cheap avilability of modern GPS moving map toys, this really shouldn't happen. I often wonder whether the technology is de-sensitizing pilots as to the inherent risks of doing this.

 

 

[metalman]

Propping the tiger from behind is the way I've been taught, hand on the strut ,pull her through, I've watched it done both ways and they both make me VERY aware of where I am and where I put bits that I want to be using at a later date.

 

Fly a tecnam at a field nearby and watched a kid pulling it through with no checks ,chocks or ideas,,,,went out to the plane and showed him that there is more to it than just hanging off the twirly thing.I get annoyed when people make comments about the drive to the airport being more dangerous, I feel it builds an air of complacency , if you took in hours driven against hours flown flying IS a risky endeavour , very unforgiving of mistakes whereas driving on the roads you can get away with daydreaming the miles away. I'm a newby to this but I've already had several people I know end up in a smoking hole though stupid errors, the worst feeling is hearing of mates doing sh!t that will kill them one day,

 

one good friend was telling me about descending through some 6000 ft of cloud and popping out at 400 feet over the water, even an Inst rating won't allow that crap,

 

watched another dope pick up PAX in a wurrier without shutting done,,,,how do you check they've strapped in right,,,what if they tripped and go forward off the wing,,,the reason,,,,,it's a real bitch to start when it's hot,,,,, yeh ,and cleaning someone's brains off the windscreen is pretty damn annoying too I bet!

 

Just this Christmas watched a guy in a Cessna float down the runway and forced it on in the last third of the runway,,,it is a horrible feeling watching a potential crash unfold ,,,he made it ,but his judgement is questionable, next time it may bite him ," got away with it last time ,she'll be right"

 

Met

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Propping the tiger from behind is the way I've been taught, hand on the strut ,pull her through, I've watched it done both ways and they both make me VERY aware of where I am and where I put bits that I want to be using at a later date.Fly a tecnam at a field nearby and watched a kid pulling it through with no checks ,chocks or ideas,,,,went out to the plane and showed him that there is more to it than just hanging off the twirly thing.I get annoyed when people make comments about the drive to the airport being more dangerous, I feel it builds an air of complacency , if you took in hours driven against hours flown flying IS a risky endeavour , very unforgiving of mistakes whereas driving on the roads you can get away with daydreaming the miles away. I'm a newby to this but I've already had several people I know end up in a smoking hole though stupid errors, the worst feeling is hearing of mates doing sh!t that will kill them one day,

one good friend was telling me about descending through some 6000 ft of cloud and popping out at 400 feet over the water, even an Inst rating won't allow that crap,

 

watched another dope pick up PAX in a wurrier without shutting done,,,,how do you check they've strapped in right,,,what if they tripped and go forward off the wing,,,the reason,,,,,it's a real bitch to start when it's hot,,,,, yeh ,and cleaning someone's brains off the windscreen is pretty damn annoying too I bet!

 

Just this Christmas watched a guy in a Cessna float down the runway and forced it on in the last third of the runway,,,it is a horrible feeling watching a potential crash unfold ,,,he made it ,but his judgement is questionable, next time it may bite him ," got away with it last time ,she'll be right"

 

Met

Have to agree with most of what you have said Met. . . . .

 

I Still don't like handraulically propping a Tiger from behind, . . . . OK, you can hang on to the strut, and the instructor who showed me the technique said that it was good. . . BECAUSE. . . . "you can reach the switches and knock off the mags if something goes wrong" ( ? ). . . but HANG ON A SEC, I have always thought that the PILOT is the Commander in that excercise, and only HE has control of the switches. . . , if this is quoted as a good reason to be standing between a live propeller and a wing leading edge, then I'd have to agree to disagree. Yes yes yes,. . . .I've listened to the arguments about the fact that a DH82A is a tailwheel ( Skid ) aircraft which means that the propeller arc is angled slightly rearwards, and therefore the bottom of the prop arc is a bit close to your beer belly BUT if correct precedure is observed, then this does not present a danger. ( My opinion. . . others may differ, but I'm still here, and have never been prop-bitten)

 

On the "Descending thru cloud on a VFR licence is also fraught with danger. We've all been there, ( well,. . .some of us anyway ) and done that. . . . looking at the statistics, I think it is fair to say that there have been a lot of pilots ( and innocent passengers ) killed when a VFR trained pilot tries to do this. Even Commercial pilots with a current instrument rating have come to grief whilst flying for pleasure on the weekend with the family and flying in marginal conditions. So you should either stick to VFR and turn back if the weather isn't playing ball, or switch to full IFR and climb the hell out of it. ( If you are allowed to do this )

 

If you are not licenced for full IFR flight. . . ., then don't go there. Strangely . . . people still do. . . . . . . thereby giving us something to read about in the crash comics and say "tut tut. . . . . I'd never do that. . . . . " But when it actually happens, I've been on board as "Qualified Ballast" when young pilots have said the equivalent of. . . "She'll be Jake mate. . . . . " on most occasions,. . . . She Isn't.

 

Instrument ratings are for commercial operators, where it is essential to fly in any weather. PPL Instrument ratings are for people who have to get there. . . . but have to be prepared to pay for lots of additional training, and only fly appliances which have the appropriate gear on board the aircraft and are prepared to pay to keep the training current. ( 12 month retest for PPL / 6 months line check for ATPL )

 

In the UK we are unique in that we have something called the IMC rating. . . . this allows flight in reduced visibilty, . . .below that allowed for VFR,. . . to fly through cloud en route, and training to enable a landing using radio navigation aids up to and including ILS. HOWEVER. . . . . . The IMC| rating cannot be used to carry out a flight to a destination which is known to be below VFR minima. In other words, you can fly in a bit of cloud, but you can't go somewhere unless the destination airfield is advertising conditions which are VFR. . . . IMC rating holders are given NO privileges for flight in controlled airsppace nor airways.

 

So it is really an En-route, bad visibilty rating, and requires a minimum of 15 hours training, and some written examinations, and it is only available to GA and NOT Microlight, or NPPL pilots in the UK.Still, I guess it's better than nothing, and extra training never hurt anyone.

 

Watch out for them props . . . .!

 

Phil

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Question . . . . ( slightly off topic [ there's a surprise then....] )

 

Are LSA aircraft allowed to use RAAF airfields, as we are here in the UK ???

 

 

[Sapphire]

I have known test pilots to do cockpit FOD checks by rolling inverted, give it a shake then pick up off the canopy what falls out.

You wouldn't want to do that with an a/c used in "mile high club" operations. Besides lipstick, toys, etc you would have used condoms splashing against your canopy.

 

 

[dazza 38]

Question . . . . ( slightly off topic [ there's a surprise then....] )Are LSA aircraft allowed to use RAAF airfields, as we are here in the UK ???

Only if you want to get your head blown off.

We had/have a flyingclub at RAAF Base Amberley GA only. Have to be ex military or currently serving. Or a ant (Airforce cadet).

 

 

[Phil Perry]

You wouldn't want to do that with an a/c used in "mile high club" operations. Besides lipstick, toys, etc you would have used condoms splashing against your canopy.

Canopy ? ? ? ? ? In a TIGER MOTH ???

 

 

[dazza 38]

Canopy ? ? ? ? ? In a TIGER MOTH ???

I have seen piccys of Tiger moths with canopy. Canadian I think from memory.Also there is one at Evans Head with a canopy.Not flying, looks like it needs alot of refurbishment.

 

 

[facthunter]

You shouldn't have holes in the floor where foreign oblects can go. A friend of mine died because of a coin jamming the controls. Nev

 

 

[facthunter]

Yeah tigers with canopies have always been around. As mentioned they are Canadian. Usually they have brakes and a tailwheel and the U/C is placed more forward, ( because of the brakes) so that makes the damn thing more directionally unstable and you can't see out of it because you are always cranking your head out the side landing the thing anyhow.

 

I must qualify that a bit by saying" when you 3 point them", which everyone did most times. I can't recall anyone lately doing anything but wheelers. What's changed? Not the plane.

 

Also you have to be Biggles or someone to fly them today. People soloed from scratch in 6 or 7 hours, having mastered things like stalling etc before soloing.

 

I agree with Phil about hand propping them. They were never propped from behind. Also you opened the cowl and checked the throttle linkage closed at the time you primed it.

 

You also never wrapped your fingers around the edge of the prop as you can lose them or severely cut them particularly with the Fairey Reed metal props in the Chippie and some Austers. ( You can't swing from behind and NOT do this.)

 

I witnessed an Auster tug plane started by prop swinging at Bond springs and it started on full throttle and charged into a pile of 44 gallon fuel drums. I had already done my flight but that plane did no more flying that day. Nev

 

 

[ruffasguts]

been hand swinging for 30+ years HE WHO SWINGS THE PROP CALLS THE SHOTS could be god in the cockpit but i still rule

 

 

[M61A1]

You shouldn't have holes in the floor where foreign oblects can go. A friend of mine died because of a coin jamming the controls. Nev

I read that the early F4U Corsairs had no floor, only two channels for your feet to sit in, and that anything dropped disappeared somewhere into 3 feet of darkness.

As Dazza would attest to, in the defence force they really drum the dangers of FOD into you, with lots of graphic videos, daily FOD walks (clearing the flight line of anything that could cause damage), all FOD dropped in the aircraft reported and followed up with all trades FOD checks. That, being a tradesman, supervisor and an independent inspector of each trade- sumpies, framies, gunnies and the queer trades- elec, instrument and rad techs, all looking with a torch and mirror and either finding the object, or certifiying that they can't find it and that they have checked that it's not in any of their respective systems where it could cause harm.

 

 

[facthunter]

Ruffasguts is right. The swinger of the prop calls the shots. No other system is feasible.

 

Same as the crane don't lift till the dogman signals. Nev

 

 

[Phil Perry]

I have seen piccys of Tiger moths with canopy. Canadian I think from memory.Also there is one at Evans Head with a canopy.Not flying, looks like it needs alot of refurbishment.

Damn,. . . a canopy Eh ?. . . that would have caught the coins . . .! ! ! !

 

 

[Phil Perry]

been hand swinging for 30+ years HE WHO SWINGS THE PROP CALLS THE SHOTS could be god in the cockpit but i still rule

Quite right Ruff. . . . that was clumsily worded, , , what I was getting at was my preference on the Tiger for swinging from the front rather than behind the prop. When hand swinging props on weightshift trikes when P1 has run down the battery, ( regular occurence. . .). . I'm the one yelling the instructions too.

 

 

[metalman]

Like I said I've seen the prop start done both ways, the owners of the tiger I'm using have the behind method as their way, so far. I don't have enough time to form an opinion either way, although it is a real wake up when it fires and your between it and the wing. A CFI mate props his chippie from the front ( saves wearing stuff out for no reason apparently) and he does "strong arm starter classes on occasion " ,

 

Met

 

 

[facthunter]

Armstrong starter. The prop trailing edge on the Chippie is too sharp to wrap your fingers around and the way the blade is angled you don't have to do this when propping from the front. You have your hand flat on the blade and push on it and this automatically inclines you to move away from the prop. You actually swing away from the entire arc of the prop.

 

When propping from behind especially with a tailwheel plane as the prop blade moves down you fall into the prop arc, and have to use the sharp trailing edge.

 

As I said before, I am with Phil on this. Nev

 

 

[djpacro]

Tigers I start from behind, so convenient for some-one my height to grab a strut and swing the prop. My mechanic starts a Decathlon from behind (if it has a flat battery) with one hand on the strut. I used to start a Pitts from the front per the method by Nev for the Chipmunk.

 

I am more wary of props as I have got older.

 

 

[Guest ratchet]

An EXTREMELY prominent aviator who would rank himself just below Chuck Yeager because of his recorded

 

feats once delivered an a/c to me. After detaching the ferry tank in the seat and stuffing with the plumbing

 

he indicated for me to jump in for some familiarisation.

 

The sky god started up, made the calls, lined her up and while boring his eyes into the back of my skull

 

intoned "this is what we'll do WHEN the engine stops....not IF the engine stops!"

 

I listened intently for 20 seconds then pointed at a big red lever marked FUEL, which was still off...

 

I think the word started with sh..

 

 

[Guest ratchet]

Propping the tiger from behind is the way I've been taught, hand on the strut ,pull her through, I've watched it done both ways and they both make me VERY aware of where I am and where I put bits that I want to be using at a later date.Fly a tecnam at a field nearby and watched a kid pulling it through with no checks ,chocks or ideas,,,,went out to the plane and showed him that there is more to it than just hanging off the twirly thing.I get annoyed when people make comments about the drive to the airport being more dangerous, I feel it builds an air of complacency , if you took in hours driven against hours flown flying IS a risky endeavour , very unforgiving of mistakes whereas driving on the roads you can get away with daydreaming the miles away. I'm a newby to this but I've already had several people I t know end up in a smoking hole though stupid errors, the worst feeling is hearing of mates doing sh!t that will kill them one day,

one good friend was telling me about descending through some 6000 ft of cloud and popping out at 400 feet over the water, even an Inst rating won't allow that crap,

 

watched another dope pick up PAX in a wurrier without shutting done,,,,how do you check they've strapped in right,,,what if they tripped and go forward off the wing,,,the reason,,,,,it's a real bitch to start when it's hot,,,,, yeh ,and cleaning someone's brains off the windscreen is pretty damn annoying too I bet!

 

Just this Christmas watched a guy in a Cessna float down the runway and forced it on in the last third of the runway,,,it is a horrible feeling watching a potential crash unfold ,,,he made it ,but his judgement is questionable, next time it may bite him ," got away with it last time ,she'll be right"

 

Met

Of all the things i hate about flying- it's ego. Pilots who could do aeros anywhere, choose to show off over the strip while people try to join circuit.

 

Once saw a LAME/yak driver/chopper pilot/NASA astronaut try to start a drifter.

 

Ran the battery flat then started hand propping til he was stuffed. I advised to empty

 

the contents of one carb bowl on one air cleaner and it WILL fire. He looked

 

imperious, said not a word and put the plane away.

 

OK fuel on the cleaner aint great, but not as if they aren't replaced regularly and he'd

 

just driven 45km for a fly and would now drive 45km back and would wait til next

 

weekend.

 

Also saw a CFI fly an open cockpit (AA) plane in the rain which debraded the prop to underviceability.

 

Because his ego was on the line and he could not be accused of being dumb, his

 

acolytes starting seriously looking for a suitable prop that would withstand the rain so that

 

he could fly a VFR aircraft with open switches in rain.

 

 

[djpacro]

I read that the early F4U Corsairs had no floor, only two channels for your feet to sit in, and that anything dropped disappeared.....

like the Pitts. Too many FOD incidents with aerobatic aircraft to mention.

Of all the things i hate about flying- it's ego.

Agreed, many aerobatic pilots suffer from this and too many die.

Pilots who could do aeros anywhere, choose to show off over the strip

Some of us do that - airfield is close if we have a problem and some-one on the ground can assist with practice by critiquing our performance. If below 3,000 ft AGL that person has a radio and we will cease the aerobatics if there is potential traffic conflict.

[facthunter]

I have found there are always people around that would like to engourage "limit" flying. Why (it seems) does somebody with a CJ6? or something have to commence a departure turn at 50 feet. Why does it happen that when you take an aerobatic plane somewhere you are encouraged to give a display on departure. or some clown wants to borrow it, who you wouldn't know from a bar of soap.

 

Ego, Show off. Suppose there is a bit of it in all of us. Girls seem to be less likely to need to do this. It's probably an alpha male thing, but you would think natural selection would have taken care of that gene. To tell the truth. If you want to go and write yourself off, not much can be said to stop it. when you take a passenger with you or encourage someone else, I'm not impressed. However with what has happened with CASA and RAAus lately we are affected by bad behaviour , or breaking rules, and we all suffer the consequences. End of rant. Nev