Turn Smart

[Head in the clouds]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwrfEsCiltc

[ayavner]

well I'll say it... Thanks for posting this, headintheclouds. Seems like maybe there is a bit of a daredevil culture among Ag flyers that they are trying to get a handle on. Good stuff!

 

 

[facthunter]

If what this guy is saying doesn't make complete sense, keep watching it till it does. Nev

 

 

[Ballpoint 246niner]

Every pilot should understand this.... And fly accordingly.

 

 

[poteroo]

It's good info. The 1st example of overcorrecting a slipping turn to the left is the basis of what the Canadians call a 'moose stall', and what we call a 'mustering stall'. The high wing stalls 1st and in a split second the aircraft is up and over. Suddenly you are going thru level when you were previously turning... if you recover it there you'll live. If you ever use a technique of rudder to lift the lower wing - (to spot a cow or moose etc) - while in a turn - then you're a candidate for this particular stall.

 

happy days,

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

It's good info. The 1st example of overcorrecting a slipping turn to the left is the basis of what the Canadians call a 'moose stall', and what we call a 'mustering stall'. The high wing stalls 1st and in a split second the aircraft is up and over. Suddenly you are going thru level when you were previously turning... if you recover it there you'll live. If you ever use a technique of rudder to lift the lower wing - (to spot a cow or moose etc) - while in a turn - then you're a candidate for this particular stall.happy days,

Sorry mate, but I think you have it a bit back to front. If you're slipping in a left turn it means you have left rudder on and probably right aileron so if you stall you'll stall the left wing and roll left, (not over the top) and the correct action is reduce the angle of attack and apply right rudder i.e. you'd be lifting the lower wing with rudder.

 

To stall the right wing in a left turn you'd have to be skidding i.e. be holding top rudder and left aileron...

 

In the second part you say "If you ever use a technique of rudder to lift the lower wing - (to spot a cow or moose etc) - while in a turn - then you're a candidate for this particular stall" and that is quite incorrect, the whole point of the video was to demonstrate that you should use the rudder to lift the lower wing, rather than aileron, or at the very least stop using it to hold the wing down, and get co-ordinated again.

 

Regarding the mustering/moose/ag/procedural turn - what that is all about is a pilot wanting to increase his turn rate without increasing the bank angle and so the temptation is to use bottom rudder because the yaw makes the turn appear to tighten but all that is happening is the nose points further into the turn, the secondary effect of the yaw is roll of course, so the plane wants to roll (increase angle of bank) and so the pilot holds off the roll by using aileron. Now you're slipping in the classic trap as described in the first part of the video, and if you pull the stick back to tighten the turn you risk stalling the inner (lower) wing and going incipient in the direction of the turn.

 

The worst situation of the above comes when turning downwind because it is easy to be swept beyond the intended ground path, hence the need to try and tighten the turn.

 

To explain the mustering turn - it is of course very similar to the ag/procedural/P turn but becomes dangerous when you are working a mob downwind and particularly while yarding up once a few of the leaders start wanting to turn back. You're essing on the tail of the mob and the wind is pushing you over the top of them so you need to turn tighter to make sure you don't overrun them, very similar to the downwind ag turn problem. If the wind is above 5kts I always turn back away from the mob and into wind, I can turn tighter (ground related) that way and in fact it gets my view of the mob's tail back sooner than by turning toward them.

 

The moose turn is another thing again and is similar to when we're working mickeys - wild bulls that have never been yarded previously, if they've escaped the muster previously they become very sly and go for the scrub and lie down in it, often all you will see is their eye peering up at you. You deal with them with a shotgun and rubber pellets, to get them moving again. The moose or mickey turn results from being too close over the top of him and you can't see him directly below you, so rather than needing to lift the wing as you described, you need to lower it, or more properly you need a higher bank angle so we're back to the tendency to use rudder to tighten the turn and the discomfort of the resulting slip results in aileron being used to hold off the bank, same result, different reason for doing it. The correct procedure, having got yourself too close, is to stop turning, fly away a bit then turn back, pull a high bank co-ordinated turn over the top, fire on him and straighten up again - this is all assuming you have the appropriate endorsements, licences and permissions for firearms use from aircraft etc... before anyone gets their bloomers twisted.

 

Edit note - I had to change a couple of things after reading it through, it's easy to confuse yourself with this stuff...

 

 

[ausadvance]

mate that was a fantastic video and should be taught to shown to every pilot, particularly those doing any low level work! every muster pilot should watch this, ive already sent it to about 15 muster pilots and theres more on the list!