Low and slow

[M61A1]

I have done a little low level training, spent most of the time between 5 and 50 feet, and 65kts(thats a bit of spare airspeed in a drifter). No flying over trees, gotta fly between them. I did really enjoy it even if it did take a bit of getting used to. The first couple of times the instructor wanted steep turns at 50 feet, had me a little concerned, but sure did make sure I flew balanced.

 

 

[David Isaac]

I have done a little low level training, spent most of the time between 5 and 50 feet, and 65kts(thats a bit of spare airspeed in a drifter). No flying over trees, gotta fly between them. I did really enjoy it even if it did take a bit of getting used to. The first couple of times the instructor wanted steep turns at 50 feet, had me a little concerned, but sure did make sure I flew balanced.

Didn't do that with Kevin Walters by any chance did you M61 A1? ... he would be my choice on the East coast for that training, I'd go with Poteroo in WA.

 

 

[Guest nunans]

What sort of of carby is on your 503 that has carby heat?

The dual Bing carbs that come on the 503DCDI,

There is a hose fitted from the shroud where the cooling air has already passed throught the cylinder cooling fins, through a slide valve operated from the carb heat knob on the panel and into the rear centre of the air filter (dual rotax type)

 

It's all very nicely done but I was under the impression that carb heat is mainly for butterfly carbs.. Who knows?

 

 

[facthunter]

Think the close positioning to the cylinder helps 2 strokes. Piston ported engines have some air coming back that may help the carb to keep warm. You can never be SURE though. Nev

 

 

[ausadvance]

Yes there is Pud, hard to find an instructor to do it though. I'd imagine you would have some good instructors in WA. There is no GA endorsement as such, just low level training, but you have to have cause to be below 500'; crop dusting, power line inspections, property inspections, mustering etc.Not be taken lightly, there is real skill required and training is essential.

For those interested, Wayne fisher is one of the very few who can issue this endorsement. Though raa is funny about who it is issued to, call spectrum aviation for more details

 

Hi Met your welcome to come and go for a fly in my drifter when you get your endorsement do some real flying, l remember when l used to fly under 300 agl in the early 80 s l 5hit my self once when got up to 750ft in those days got caught in a thermal and up she went was in an Easy Riser so light took for ever to come down ,used to fly all over the farm at about 50 ft was legal then no license either .what a difference 30 years makes.

cheers Geoff.

same goes here, if anyone is ever around lismore a ride in my drifter is always available!

 

 

[David Isaac]

For those interested, Wayne fisher is one of the very few who can issue this endorsement. Though raa is funny about who it is issued to, call spectrum aviation for more detail ....

I had no idea that Wayne did the LL RA Aus endorsement, he would be a great instructor. Kevin Waters also does it at Bradfield airfield in Qld, Kevin was a previous GA ag pilot instructor, hard to beat those credentials. I think Poteroo (on this forum) was also a previous GA ag instructor as well, not sure if he does RA Aus LL as well.

If the endorsement is available and a pilot is competent why should who the pilot is have any relevance to RA Aus? After all the pilot could be LL on any private property where he has permission.

 

 

[ausadvance]

I had no idea that Wayne did the LL RA Aus endorsement, he would be a great instructor. Kevin Waters also does it at Bradfield airfield in Qld, Kevin was a previous GA ag pilot instructor, hard to beat those credentials. I think Poteroo (on this forum) was also a previous GA ag instructor as well, not sure if he does RA Aus LL as well.If the endorsement is available and a pilot is competent why should who the pilot is have any relevance to RA Aus? After all the pilot could be LL on any private property where he has permission.

I believe one must have to prove a requirement for it.

 

 

[David Isaac]

And to think in the 80s under ANO 95-10 we were not allowed above 300' in our early machines. My how times and opinions change.

 

 

[facthunter]

David, from a philosothical point of view, it is curious that once you could not go above 300' and now you have to have a reason and training to go there. Why am I a cynic? Nev

 

 

[flyerme]

Ok I

 

I believe one must have to prove a requirement for it.

I did my LL. ENDO. Still signed off in my log book how ever Zane Tully denied it claiming my need was not warranted?( my need at time : over 8000 acres of grazing property to regurly check ie: fences water tanks troughs and live stock . Would been much easier to fly over inspecting everything but apparently that's not what a LL endo for?). So trained and paid but denied? There is a plus! I'm very aware of what can happen down there and I always got them poles in site.. So even with out some letters on my certificate I'm much better off..

much safer?

 

 

[gooneybird]

I did some low level training with Kevin Walters,good stuff.He has been there do that so much experience and knows his onions. going low is part of the deal for properties,

 

 

[David Isaac]

Ok II did my LL. ENDO. Still signed off in my log book how ever Zane Tully denied it claiming my need was not warranted?( my need at time : over 8000 acres of grazing property to regurly check ie: fences water tanks troughs and live stock . Would been much easier to fly over inspecting everything but apparently that's not what a LL endo for?). So trained and paid but denied? There is a plus! I'm very aware of what can happen down there and I always got them poles in site.. So even with out some letters on my certificate I'm much better off..

 

much safer?

Tim, sounds like you have a genuine reason, something like my Javelin is perfect for that kind of flying because it is real slow. If I were you I would appeal the decision. It seems you have a genuine need and therefore the legal right.

 

 

[aj_richo]

Yeah but - as Tim owned the land he was inspecting, then technically he didn't require an LL endorsement.

 

95.55 Section 6.2 covers it.

 

If Tim was an instructor training others in low level ops, then an LL endorsement would be appropriate?

 

6.2For the purposes of subparagraph 5.1 (b), the conditions,

 

1 of which must be complied with for an aeroplane to be flown at less than 500 feet above ground level, are:

 

(b) the aeroplane must be flying:

 

(i) over land that is owned by, or under the control of, the pilot or of another person (including the Crown) who, or an agent or employee of whom, has given permission for the flight over the land at such a height; and

 

(ii) at a distance of at least 100 metres horizontally from any person (other than any person associated with the operation of the aeroplane) and from any public road; or

 

© the pilot of the aeroplane must be engaged in flying training and the aeroplane must be flying over a part of a flying training area over which CASA has, under subregulation 141 (1) of the Regulations, authorised low flying.

 

 

[David Isaac]

Except you forgot the bit about the RAAus ops manual which requires a LL rating.

 

You don't need one in GA, but it is strongly advise that you get LL training in GA.

 

 

[aj_richo]

Oops, re ops manual - the critical "and" after the section 6.2 paragraph instead of "or"

 

Do you get the impression the idea is to discourage flight below 500ft regardless of where you are flying?

 

 

[facthunter]

I've qualified in GA, Taught it in GA , Trained to 400 foot circuits in Commercial Jets. Taught it as part of the normal syllabus in RAAus but they won't put LL on my certificate as I don't have a need for it. I can't quite follow the logic. Maybe you have to be mustering cattle , most days. Nev

 

 

[David Isaac]

Mustering cattle is particularly dangerous, but rural property inspection is far less dangerous and some of the ultralight aircraft are ideal for this purpose, my single surface wing Javelin would be ideal cruising at 25 to 30 knots safely. The Drifter would be perfect. In fact Drifters were used for aerial agriculture in the early days and still are by some.

 

I think there is a definite discouraging of issue of the LL endorsement in RAA. We know that a lot of LL flying is done in ultralights surely it is better to at least get trained in the safety issues and techniques. Even if you have LL on your certificate you still have to have a justifiable of need at the time you actually fly LL.

 

 

[facthunter]

Some will do it regardless David. Better to be trained to some level of competence. I doubt training would make people more dangerous. A LITTLE knowledge is dangerous. Knowing the PROPER way to do something shouldn't be. Might stop some stalling while turning onto final. IF you are doing a forced landing your turn onto final might be at 100 feet or less. Nev

 

 

[dazza 38]

The thing is, discouraging peeps from getting a LL endorsement or denying people the rating after they have completed the training IMO is crap. All that is going to happen is pilots are going to thumb their nose at the RAA and fly low anyway. Especially over their own property. I will bet my left nut that this happens everyday all ready.

 

 

[David Isaac]

I think your left nut is safe Dazz.

 

We were forced to fly low under the early ANO 95-10. All my early ultralight flying was done under 300 ft because the regulation prohibited you above that height. But this was the purvey of the 95-10 style aircraft and at that time initially most were single surface wing, slow and safe. Now that we have almost GA capable ultralights, low altitude is not the place these slippery buggas should be.

 

Notwithstanding as Nev has pointed out if you are going to fly low over your own property which we know most ultralight property owners do, then training in the LL techniques by competent people is a very prudent step. In the early days I was constantly on vigil for power lines, however was only cruising at 25 knots in the Frank Bailey Mustang and the agility if the little aircraft with Frank's signature large control services was amazing. They were certainly fun days.

 

 

[nong]

If, what Zane Tully did, not issuing an endorsement that was trained for, is true, he, in that case, brought RAAus into disrepute and he should have been sanctioned by the board.

 

Zane certainly liked to accuse others, such as me, of bringing the organisation into disrepute.

 

It is absolutely NOT ON for members to have to justify why they want an endorsement.

 

It is, then, only one short step to require members to justify why they might wish to obtain a pilot certificate. "What is your reason for wanting to fly?"

 

Considering the numbers of self taught low level operators getting about, RAAus should welcome, with open arms, anyone who fronts up for some training or who applies for an endorsement with prior skill.

 

If they don't wish to issue the endorsement in the normal way, then they should strike it out of the Op's Manual and let everyone get on with their low level flying.

 

 

[David Isaac]

Well said Nong, I think your sentiments are probably common to many of us.

 

 

[turboplanner]

That's not unusual Nong, you have to justify why you want to own a gun, and not only that but you have to specify where you want to use it, leaving you open to prosecution if you use it out of bounds.

 

It's not hard to check trough levels, stick which is down, fences which have broken, and boxed stock from 500 feet unless you have an eyesight problem, and the next step always involves going back to the homestead for heavy tools/equipment anyway.

 

 

[flyerme]

My instructor spoke directly TO RAA and was told " CASA we're not allowing LL endo's after a spade of LL accidents and we're now organising specific coarses for Ll endo's January 2012...

 

His belief is all pilot certificate holders should have some form of ll training either ground schooling or in flight.. He believes it makes us way safer especially in emergency situations ( ie power line spotting)there may be a time ( as happened last year whilst a pilot was heading to avalon) when you have to put down in a unknown field/paddock.,, here's where LL training comes in handy for inspection etc....

 

it's been pointed out on here before and I second it

 

An awesome book " flight at lower levels". Have a read ... It Could save your life one day

 

As for my LL. endo .well I'm just happy being safer and more aware regardless of the letters on my certificate.

 

 

[David Isaac]

That's not unusual Nong, you have to justify why you want to own a gun, and not only that but you have to specify where you want to use it, leaving you open to prosecution if you use it out of bounds.It's not hard to check trough levels, stick which is down, fences which have broken, and boxed stock from 500 feet unless you have an eyesight problem, and the next step always involves going back to the homestead for heavy tools/equipment anyway.

Tubz, you are not attempting to vindicate the Police sate mentality using the firearm example are you? You know the legislation that when at 50 years of age made me surrender my Sportco semi automatic .22 rifle for destruction, the rifle I had since 16 years of age where by some political BS decree I became unfit to own at 50 years of age.