Accident: Jacobs Well - blue Foxbat

[Head in the clouds]

Well I thought it was time to kill the speculation about the Blue Foxbat crash and since it took place at my home club I rang around a few of the members who might have been there on Saturday to see what they knew and/or were willing to discuss. Here's the little I was able to find out, all answers were given in good faith but there is obviously a reluctance to discuss details until the ATSB reveal their findings -

 

As far as folks know the news description of a presumably married couple aged 62 and 59 seems to be correct.

 

The names of the occupants are known to some but no-one was willing to name them.

 

The occupants were very fortunate that their injuries were relatively minor, the aircraft is a write-off.

 

All said the same thing - most details won't be made public until the ATSB report is issued.

 

The engine may have stopped but that hasn't been verified by anyone.

 

If the engine stopped it may have done so at about 2-300 ft after take-off.

 

The fuel taps have been a matter of discussion.

 

Check lists, or possible lack of them have been a matter of discussion.

 

A flying school that used to manage and hire out the plane has not been associated with it for some time.

 

The owner of the plane was not on board at the time of the crash.

 

The owner of the plane may have been managing the hiring of it more recently.

 

 

[M61A1]

I think you've got it back to front.If you train someone and he screws up, how would the Government be sued, and which Government.

 

If you train someone and he screws up and blames you, you will be sued, and a defence might be:

 

"I trained the student according to a formal, approved process"

 

"That process included the issue he made a mistake on, in Module 3"

 

"He was present for Module 3 training"

 

"I assessed him on completion of module 3 as meeting the standard for completion"

 

"I am qualified to do this as a holder of a Certificate IV in sword juggling"

 

The alternative is to imagine the plaintiff's lawyer asking you each of those questions

That's pretty much it.......Guy stuffs up-( or perhaps just does something not specificially covered by their process)

"we have a box ticked that says he was trained, so it can't be our problem"

 

Problems arise because the scope of training is inflexible, somewhat like a macca's cash register- it can't cope with anything out of the ordinary.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Well I thought it was time to kill the speculation about the Blue Foxbat crash and since it took place at my home club I rang around a few of the members who might have been there on Saturday to see what they knew and/or were willing to discuss. Here's the little I was able to find out, all answers were given in good faith but there is obviously a reluctance to discuss details until the ATSB reveal their findings -As far as folks know the news description of a presumably married couple aged 62 and 59 seems to be correct.

 

The names of the occupants are known to some but no-one was willing to name them.

 

The occupants were very fortunate that their injuries were relatively minor, the aircraft is a write-off.

 

All said the same thing - most details won't be made public until the ATSB report is issued.

 

The engine may have stopped but that hasn't been verified by anyone.

 

If the engine stopped it may have done so at about 2-300 ft after take-off.

 

The fuel taps have been a matter of discussion.

 

Check lists, or possible lack of them have been a matter of discussion.

 

A flying school that used to manage and hire out the plane has not been associated with it for some time.

 

The owner of the plane was not on board at the time of the crash.

 

The owner of the plane may have been managing the hiring of it more recently.

Unless they hit a ferris wheel, or the ATSB have specifcally said they want to investigate, this may never see the light of day. It's only very rarely that ATSB investigate RA accidents,

 

 

[David Isaac]

Unless they hit a ferris wheel, or the ATSB have specifcally said they want to investigate, this may never see the light of day. It's only very rarely that ATSB investigate RA accidents,

And that is the great tragedy ...

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

HITC, appreciate your efforts there mate, but it just leaves us wanting more !....I mean what's the big bloody mystery anyway. Either the pilot took off thinking there was fuel in the tanks ...and there wasn't. Or ...he thought he had the fuel on ...and didn't. Or, the bloody motor quit for some reason other than lack of motion-lotion!...Simple, all three by the way occur more often than they should in for-hire aircraft.....................................................................Maj...

 

 

[Teckair]

There are some aspects of this that probably should not be on a public forum.

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

HITC, appreciate your efforts there mate, but it just leaves us wanting more !....I mean what's the big bloody mystery anyway. Either the pilot took off thinking there was fuel in the tanks ...and there wasn't. Or ...he thought he had the fuel on ...and didn't. Or, the bloody motor quit for some reason other than lack of motion-lotion!...Simple, all three by the way occur more often than they should in for-hire aircraft.....................................................................Maj...

Sorry mate, I'm not holding anything back, that's all they'd say. Nobody mentioned a shortage of fuel in the tanks but they did talk about fuel valves a lot which is kinda what some folk were talking about speculatively here... The fact that everyone's clammed up, and they usually don't, may be because the ATSB are already involved apparently and there's also been a lot of friction between the landowners and the club for the last couple of years (serious High Court style of friction). There's also a question of whether the occupants were club members and if they're not then there's ramifications to do with the aircraft owner, insurance etc etc. Just guessing that's why they're all so reticent to talk.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Another Audit coming on?

 

 

[fly_tornado]

precautionary groundings!

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Copy that HITC..........................................................Cheers Maj...

 

 

[facthunter]

If you put it down quite well on that sort of surface the nosewheel will probably let go anyhow. Very few U/L nosewheels can take much. Nev

 

 

[Phil Perry]

I am impressed to think there are people good enough to fly some thing like that, they look like they would have a stall speed of about 120 knts and the touque factor would be an interesting challenge. An engine failure situation would be a hell of a challenge also.

Hiya Techie, . . . . . what I REALLY meant to say in response to Merv's queestion was that the TIGER CUB, was the smallest BIPLANE in the UK. . . . . . a really HORRIBLE little Bas***d to fly, ( I KNOW. . . I tried one. . . ) because it was designed by someone who had absoloutley NO IDEA about how aircraft fly. . . and SOLD several sets of plans, and some completed airframes, to an unwitting public some of whom were killed outright, one got barbecued after a takeoff stall / spin, and another has both legs maimed for life, BEFORE THE PROTOTYPE HAD EVEN GOT OFF THE GROUND. Nowadays this could not have happened, this was back in the early eighties before there was any regulation or standard for building and selling homebuild aircraft. He should have been burned at the stake, but wan't. IO have mentioned this aircraft in other posts. As for the other pictures we have seen of rather silly miniature aircraft, these are, as far as I am concerned, a bit of fun, and if they are "flyable" in the truest sense of the word, then it would be a surprise to me.

 

And I've flown some damned silly "aerothings" On the TC, there was ONE entry / Exit door, which opened from the FRONT. . . . the door catch was one of those things you see in a cheap kitchen unit, and if it opened whilst you were flying, ( which mine did by the way,. . .) the machine departed from "normal" level flight into a violent sort of non spin, but pitching, gyrating spiral dive to the right which nearly broke my neck with it's violence. . . . When I shut ithe door, I was able to recover from the descent with the usual inputs, and very glad I had my brown corduroys on at the time. . . . but that shows what a rubbish design it was for even a moderately competent pilot to fly safely. There were other issues too, like "for christ's sake don't try and sideslip it. . . ." it goes on. I'm just VERY GLAD that in the current training environment, not many people get killed any more by stupid designs which shouldn't have been sold in the first instance.

 

The Tiger Cub was modified and made reasonably safe by a guy named Jim Romain ( of Romain Propellers fame in the UK ) and fourteen inches was added to the length of the fuselage, amongst other things, and a few are sitill flying. The nose cowl on the one shown in my avatar was made froma Ken Hom Chinese cooking WOK. . . . . dunno about the tyres, probably licorice allsorts.

 

You don't have to be Impressed by people who fly this sort of $hit really, most of these things are just curiosities and are worth no more serious thought than that.

 

Next time I visit the Boulton and Paul aircraft museum, I'll take some pics of the "Black Adder" Tiger Cub, I can't sensibly use the word aircraft, that would be a misnomer,. . . and post them.

 

 

[Phil Perry]

If you put it down quite well on that sort of surface the nosewheel will probably let go anyhow. Very few U/L nosewheels can take much. Nev

Dead right Nev, LIGHT sport aircraft are constructed ( mostly anyway ! ) to be just that. They are constructed to be L I G H T . . . . and as such, can only be made to a certain structural strength to remain within whatever weight contsrtaints the particular country of operation has directed. . . ., given the available materials. They are not really intended to be THAT "Agricultural, and will, if operated in conditions for which they were not designed, probably not function all that well. I wonder if there are any stats on how many trike undercarted LSA machines have suffered gear failures after a few "Wheelbarrow" landings ? there are quite a few GA appliances which have, according to the reports, but I've seen no particularly directed statistics on that subject. Probably be interesting from a trainiing point of view maybe. . . .

 

Look Out, unneccesary story coming up. . . .! )

 

I watched a previous Ladyfriend ( ! ) being sent on her second solo in winds that made me doubt the parenthood of her instructor, ie fifteen knot crosswind at thirty degrees,. . . .(After only ONE SOLO FLIGHT ???????? Gimme a break. . . ) single runway ( Welshpool Airport in Welsh Wales. . . 06'/24 wedged parallel against the side of a 2000 ft escarpment,. . . . all sorts of weird wind effects at that place. . . .) she bounced once, then twice, each time amplifying the problem. . . and on the third bounce, the nosewheel said "Enough Already ! and collapsed. . . , the Tomahawk slewed off the runway into the crosswind sliding on it's nose, and embedded itself into the boundary fence. She got out, ( And I swear by almighty God this is very close truth. . . . . ) KICKED the poor aeroplane twice. . . .and after slouching back to the clubhouse, said " Oh dear,. . . I've crashed " . . . we all said "Really ? "

 

(If you ever read this Jenny, please accept my most profuse apologies )

 

Jenny GOT her PPL some weeks later anyway, at the same airfield. She said that the abovementioned incident was rather like. . . .Kangarooing the clutch when you're learning to drive a manual car. . . . . ( This was in the pub of course, a few weeks later. . . )

 

Good description I thought. . . . Dunno what the insurance company said though.

 

 

[Phil Perry]

ANYWAY ( just in case Ian is watching. . . . ) I'm really glad that those two left the BLUE FOXBAT with no serious injuries, and will be waiting to hear ( Read ? ) what actually happened. Noone has yet responded to my question about accident reporting procedures for non- GA types in OZ,. . . . . have I REALLY got to wade thru loads of government stuff to get the answer to this rather simple ( ? ) question. . . . I only asked out of interest in what differences there may be between us and you blokes ( and blokettes ) In the land of plentyofvegemite. . . . .

 

 

[facthunter]

Reports are "supposed" to be made, if a plane component fails or an incident/accident happens. As for us getting information( outside of ATSB involvement), the reports are of limited value (VERY). I have advised often here, that anyone becoming AWARE of an unsafe operation of any serious nature to report it to CASA. RAAus "accidents" are done by the police who use the assistance of the RAAus if they choose to. The Coroner gets involved if there is a death. Coroners are not necessarily Aviation savvy, nor are many judges. Nev

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Unless they hit a ferris wheel, or the ATSB have specifcally said they want to investigate, this may never see the light of day. It's only very rarely that ATSB investigate RA accidents,

AAAHHHH. . . . . a part - answer to an earlier post of mine regarding accident reports. . . . . . looks like I'll just have to keep reading for a couple of years, and then I might get a handle on it. . . . .

 

Just repeating briefly the situation in the UK :

 

If you bend it, CAA/ AAIB will investigate it. If you bend it and HURT yourself / others, They will investigate it a lot quicker. . . . . If you bend it and kill yourself / others,. . . they will investigate it Immediately, or sooner, whichever is quicker. Regrettably, due to the machinations of a government Quango,. . . it will usually be two years before the final exhaustive report is published BUT it is usually EXTREMELY accurate and detailed.

 

Phil

 

 

[turboplanner]

Phil,

 

In GA, ATSB investigates accidents, but in recent years has tapered down due to cost and now quite often decides not to investigate. For example there have been several aerobatic fatals involving pilots of the highest standard, where ATSB have said they will not investigate.

 

In RA, incidents are reported to RAA, and fatal crashes are investigated by State and Territory Police who prepare reports geared for the State Coroner and do not release them to the public. At times they call on RAA for some technical advice, but RAA have no control. Infrequently, such as the case of the notorious Ferris Wheel crash, ATSB may decide to investigate an RA crash.

 

 

[Teckair]

ANYWAY ( just in case Ian is watching. . . . ) I'm really glad that those two left the BLUE FOXBAT with no serious injuries, and will be waiting to hear ( Read ? ) what actually happened. Noone has yet responded to my question about accident reporting procedures for non- GA types in OZ,. . . . . have I REALLY got to wade thru loads of government stuff to get the answer to this rather simple ( ? ) question. . . . I only asked out of interest in what differences there may be between us and you blokes ( and blokettes ) In the land of plentyofvegemite. . . . .

I thought someone answered that? anyway here goes none fatal accidents are often not investigated unless there is some different circumstance getting attention like hitting a Ferris wheel.

Fatal accidents are normally investigated by the police and reported to the coroner and nobody else meaning we as flyers usually do not get to learn from what happened which has been a serious problem in this country.

 

The ATSB normally does not investigate anything to do with the RAAus unless the circumstances draw their attention. What could be ominous is apparently the ATSB is investigating this particular accident.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

They are?

 

 

[Teckair]

They are?

Don't know for sure but it has been said earlier on this thread.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Mite give them a call..

 

 

[turboplanner]

Yes they are investigating.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Well, that just made it much more than bodgey landing...

 

 

[turboplanner]

Do you teach your students to pick a runway not on the basis of which way the wind's blowing or which runway is in use, but because it was the runway you used last time you were there?

 

 

[Teckair]

Well, that just made it much more than bodgey landing...

Yep.