Accident: Jacobs Well - blue Foxbat

[Ballpoint 246niner]

Thanks Nev & Turbo for that. In the seventies, there was a publication called the Aviation Safety Digest, or "Crash Comic" as it was affectionately known, . . . . which used to report on thisgs as (arguably) minor as "The nosewheel of the C-172 aircraft finally failed after the pilot had struck the fourth sheep during the landing run. . . ." complete with site measurements and photographs in a glossy mag. . . it's surprising to learn that nowadays some accidents attract no investigation at all, seems like a bit of a backward step that, but perhaps the funding isn't available ?( I didn't realise the "Ferris Wheel" comment was describing a real event by the way, read it as just a a generic example. )

 

I'll look for old posts about that on the "Accidents & Incidents" thread as its going a bit off topic here.

 

Thanks Guys.

Phil, this document in recent years has been called "Flight Safety" and if you held an ARN you were sent a copy each month( bi). Due to rising costs this is now an eMag available to download.

 

Latest copy here http://www.casa.gov.au/scripts/nc.dll?WCMS:STANDARD::pc=PC_101296

 

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Thanks Ballpoint. . . . . . what a guy !.

 

Can't ask the wrong thing on here. . . . . . ( so far. . . )

 

Phil

 

 

[Ballpoint 246niner]

Thanks Ballpoint. . . . . . what a guy !.Can't ask the wrong thing on here. . . . . . ( so far. . . )

 

Phil

No worries. There are NO wrong questions! You MAY sometimes get answers that are and you will CERTAINLY get lots of opinions. Welcome.

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Yea when did this thread make a course change?...confused....

Sorry Merv. . . . I probably initiated that, . . . asking about whether there was likely to be an invstigation of some sort, re the JCW Foxbat incident, ; which is why I didn't drift into comments on the Ferris wheel story, which I now know ( Thanks to EricG and Turbo ) is well covered in another thread.

 

Apologies for your confuddlement.

 

Phil

 

 

[motzartmerv]

No wukkers.. It happens in most threads.. I was just trying to save time not having to read 100 posts to find out what we were talking about..hehe

 

 

[Phil Perry]

No wukkers.. It happens in most threads.. I was just trying to save time not having to read 100 posts to find out what we were talking about..hehe

Er, . . . I've lost track too ( up or down I'm not sure. . . ) I think it was originally about an upside down Aeroprakt up top of the Goldie Coast, . . . . and then about landing aircraft by holding the stick fully back to see if that type would deposit one on the ground gently. . . . . then about navigating starships,. . . . . . then about various types of Whizzwheel computer,. . . . . . and a bit at the end about the Wife's attic insulation. . . .

 

Bit of a mixed bag really, . . . . but it can't be reasonably called thread drift, . . .as surely drifting is the primary reason we need nav computers, . . . . but I doubt that the crp-1 had anything to do with the upside down LSA,. . . . .

 

But that's the interesting thing about these threads innit ? they always kick up side issues,. . .no matter how tenuous the links may be ( ! )

 

Phil ( I think... . therefore, I may be. . . . . )

 

 

[David Isaac]

Phil, you have truly missed your calling. I love your bent sense of humour ... you must be an Aussie even though you are stuck in Britain ... LOL

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Phil, you have truly missed your calling. I love your bent sense of humour ... you must be an Aussie even though you are stuck in Britain ... LOL

Well, I'm,. . . sort of Aussie, . . . .not sure what fraction though. I've got dual nationality, which I believe makes me an ( Albeit fractional ) Aussie by Choice. . . . . dunno what that entitles me to though, I had no intention of ever leaving the place. But I LOVE the Australian sense of humour. . . . . nothing else like it in the galaxy. ( oops,. .sorry, back to Mr. Spock again. . .)

 

 

[Flybybne]

Guys, I just saw these posts. I flew it at the time. Came back from the islands, with wife & half full tanks. Did touch & Go, when on 60 kn climb, the engine failed @ 200ft. alt. Emergency landing in rough paddock, but when front gear touched down it was ripped off and the plane overturned. 2 Nights in hospital for observation (Cut on head), a few aches and pains, but otherwise we were both OK. The only hands-on investigation was done by the Insurance's engineer. He invited me to watch. All, Fuel system and ignition tested OK and were found in perfect working order.

 

I would have preferred if they had found a reason why this ROTAX 100HP engine had failed! It was not old! My experience in hang-gliding may have helped, I don't know, but I guess I had 5-7 sec from when the engine failed until we hit the deck. I.e no time to think and plan. Just shows how important it is to keep training for engine-failure on take-off.

 

 

[DGL Fox]

Hi Flybybne,

 

So you never found out what the cause of the engine failure was?

 

David

 

 

[Teckair]

Refer #153

??????

 

 

[Flybybne]

Hi Dave, strange site, I can't find my lines from yesterday, nor your reply anymore. Anyway. The answer is no. I wish a reason for the engine failure had been found. Plenty of speculation though, none of which convincing though.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

I recall some years back that a local Foxbat had some fuel supply problems at on stage with the standard set up per the factory. The owner fitted an extra elect fuel pump and fuel pressure gauge, and was then happy....anyone else found the standard setup wanting in any way ?..............Maj...

 

 

[DGL Fox]

The answer is no. I wish a reason for the engine failure had been found. Plenty of speculation though

Flybybne, so what happened to the aircraft after the accident, did the insurance company take it away never to be seen again? It just seems unbelieveable that an accident like this happened and no one seems to want find out what caused the engine failure or if someone did find out that it was not reported to the general flying community so we can all take the appropiate action with the aircraft that we may own and fly.

 

I think this is one of the major problems we have within our sport is the investigation of accidents and thank God you and your wife are ok Flybybne and as for your peace of mind I would think that you would like to know why it happened on that day for sure.

 

David

 

 

[facthunter]

To deny anyone with some genuine reason to have it, Knowledge of what the cause of an engine failure of an AIRCRAFT component was would be able to be addressed by LAW. Has an incident report gone to CASA. Nev

 

 

[DGL Fox]

Guys, I just saw these posts. I flew it at the time. Came back from the islands, with wife & half full tanks. Did touch & Go, when on 60 kn climb, the engine failed @ 200ft. alt. Emergency landing in rough paddock, but when front gear touched down it was ripped off and the plane overturned. 2 Nights in hospital for observation (Cut on head), a few aches and pains, but otherwise we were both OK. The only hands-on investigation was done by the Insurance's engineer. He invited me to watch. All, Fuel system and ignition tested OK and were found in perfect working order.

I would have preferred if they had found a reason why this ROTAX 100HP engine had failed! It was not old! My experience in hang-gliding may have helped, I don't know, but I guess I had 5-7 sec from when the engine failed until we hit the deck. I.e no time to think and plan. Just shows how important it is to keep training for engine-failure on take-off.

I don't know Flybybne, I can still see your post from yesterday, must be a problem in your system somewhere ?

 

David

 

 

[rocket1172]

Filter! ...... My bull!@#t filter. It's chocka block after reading this thread!

 

 

[DGL Fox]

Maybe your filter works both ways rocket. ??????

 

David

 

 

[rocket1172]

Only one way Dave. ..fair dinkum!

 

 

[Flybybne]

To Answer the questions above:

 

• An accident report was submitted.
   
   
  
• Aircraft was taken to the hangar where the investigation by insurance engineer was done.
   
   
  
• Mechanical Fuel pump was dismounted and tested in my presence: worked OK. Plane was not equipped with electrical fuel pump (high wing)
   
   
  
• Insurance paid out fully within a couple of weeks and sold the wreck back to the owner for a small amount
   
   
  
• Website works OK now, thanks - maybe it was me ...
   
   
  

 

 

 

 

[geoffreywh]

That is sooo scary. EFATO with no known cause. especially a Rotax.. ..Did the engine stop suddenly or lose power and splutter to a stop? I mean. The engine needs fuel, spark and compression which one was missing?.....

 

 

[dazza 38]

That is sooo scary. EFATO with no known cause. especially a Rotax.. ..Did the engine stop suddenly or lose power and splutter to a stop? I mean. The engine needs fuel, spark and compression which one was missing?.....

Insurance companies will look for the basics, ie- Fuel in the carbs, spark OK, engine will turn over etc. Then if they are OK, next would be I guess carby ice and/or finger trouble with the fuel system . This is a generalization nothing to do with this particular case. AND contrary to popular belief , insurance companies have and do at times pay out if when no obvious fault is found like above.

 

 

[DGL Fox]

You would have to think that when the owner got it back he would have certainly got the engine pulled down and checked, assumingly he bought it back off the insurance company to re build ????It would be interesting to talk to the owner...I just wonder if he is staying quiet on the cause for some reason??

 

David

 

 

[Downunder]

I recall some years back that a local Foxbat had some fuel supply problems at on stage with the standard set up per the factory. The owner fitted an extra elect fuel pump and fuel pressure gauge, and was then happy....anyone else found the standard setup wanting in any way ?..............Maj...

100 plus hours and no problems..... Don't like the single fuel filter on the floor behind the passengers seat though. Need to be outside the A/C with a torch to see it properly.

I will be fitting filters up high under the isolation valves for each tank. Easier to see and can swap to the other tank if blocked. It will also be easy to replace.

 

I will be fitting a pressure gauge and flow meter soon. Very interested to see what the pressure is.

 

Obviously with a gravity fed system, the vents are important. Any restriction there will give problems.

 

 

[David Isaac]

To Answer the questions above:

• An accident report was submitted.
   
   
  
• Aircraft was taken to the hangar where the investigation by insurance engineer was done.
   
   
  
• Mechanical Fuel pump was dismounted and tested in my presence: worked OK. Plane was not equipped with electrical fuel pump (high wing)
   
   
  
• Insurance paid out fully within a couple of weeks and sold the wreck back to the owner for a small amount
   
   
  
• Website works OK now, thanks - maybe it was me ...
   
   
  

Hi Flybybne,

Glad you guys survived that EFATO.

 

If nothing definitive was able to be identified, was there any probabilities tabled at all such as carby ice etc?

 

Can you describe how the engine failed, was there a loss of power followed by a sudden stop or just a sudden stop, was there misfiring prior to stop?