Do you prefer to navigate track up or north up...?

[Guest Howard Hughes]

And yer still can't fold your map all the way out!

 

 

[facthunter]

It's really designed for coffee and sandwiches HH. Nev

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

So how about this as an answer more correct than others sofar...

 

a map is a tool used to assist you getting from A to B use it so that setting off from A you arrive at B. How you do that is entirely up to you. If you don't arrive at B and the aircraft and pilot are still serviceable then you did it wrong try another style of map reading.

 

Once you have found a way that works. Stick to it, repetition is the only way of speeding things up and ensuring the same outcome to each set of same circumstances. If you use north up and want to swivel your head upside down then providing your restraints work then great, you might even help avoid a DVT as you "exercise" in flight! Me being a lazy B will make the map swivel rather than me......

 

Andy

 

 

[Guest Howard Hughes]

It's really designed for coffee and sandwiches HH. Nev

Yep, apparently it will be standard fit out in a Kingair from 2015!

Along with the side stick, fly-by-wire, FADEC and touch screens!

 

Hope I don't spill my dinner on my MAP (track up of course) !

 

 

[facthunter]

You don't have to swivel your head to work out where you are going along a track line. You can use what's in it. Nev

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Nev....there for a moment i thought you were taking what I said seriously...... I need this whole RAAus thing done with so people known what im really like!! Perhaps a few more smileys

 

Andy

 

 

[motzartmerv]

HH.. Say its not so!!!!!! side stick fly by wire???? Dreams shattered:( . I have very few rules in life.. One of them is not to have any computer system in between me and my elevator.... :( ...

 

 

[motzartmerv]

HH.. Say its not so!!!!!! side stick fly by wire???? Dreams shattered:( . I have very few rules in life.. One of them is not to have any computer system in between me and my elevator.... :( ...

 

 

[sfGnome]

HH.. Say its not so!!!!!! side stick fly by wire???? Dreams shattered:( . I have very few rules in life.. One of them is not to have any computer system in between me and my elevator.... :( ...

Oh, ye of little faitfaitfaitfaitfaitfaitfaitfaitfaitfaitfaitfaitfaitfaitfaitfaitfaitfaitfaitfaitfaitfaitfaitfaitfaitfaitfaitfaitfaitfaitfaitfaitfaitfaitfaitfaitfaitBlueScreen

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Exactly!!!!

 

 

[sfGnome]

Actually, I should admit that I write real-time embedded control software for a living. Some years ago, I worked for a company that put remote control alarm systems in (very expensive) vehicles where the operators at the monitoring centre could shut off the engine when the police instructed them it was safe to. Unfortunately, the software was of dubious quality (actually, it was total crap) and occasionally it would just shut off the engine without warning. I'm told that it was pretty exciting to be pushing hard around a fast sweeping bend and to suddenly lose the motor...

 

Having said all that, it is possible to write good, safe control software, but it costs a *lot* of money. (Oops. Is this thread drifting again?? )

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

I knew there was a reason I have declared all my gardens and yards "Gnome free areas!" for years now...............................................................Maj...

 

 

[facthunter]

That's Garden Gnomes Maj, made of cement or something. Gnome is a person. Nev

 

 

[Phil Perry]

You can leave the girls out of it...I use a chart the way it is supposed to be...North up!

 

Mariners plot their charts this way and they invented navigation so North up has got be right. If you tried swinging a naval chart around on the table at sea you would be put back in your place very quick smart.

 

And it saves trying to read things upside down, too.

 

kaz

'Ang on Kaz,. . . . . . My C-210 used to cruise at about 115 Knots, until I remembered to raise the gear. . . . . then it was somewhat quicker.. . . .If I was travelling at a leisurely Nautical pace of around, say, 24/27 knots in my aircraft carrier, . . . . then I'd have plenty of time to sort out my track made good from my drift angle against projected / required sea track. . . . Water all looks the same to me. . . . . BUT if I was in an Aviation based appliance, and flying over land, ( sorry I don't understand much latin so I won't say terra firma ) then,. . . . I would really want my ground features to line up with what I could see out of the windows. This seems to me to be very sensible. It was highlighted to me by a realy nice guy named Lofty Mason, ( Sqn Leader Retd.) who was an RAAF Cartographer. He explained it to some student pilots, and. sitting at the back having a fag, ( as you sometimes do) I thought, Hmmm Yes. . . that makes a lot of sense.

 

Where NORTH was actually located, or even where the Rose and Crown English Pub in Sydney was located. would be pretty well irrelevant compared to where I WANTED TO GO. . . . . and, since there were no satellites around when I did my flying in OZ, I would have the chart bloody well TRACK UP, to make ANY useful ground features appear where they were supposed to appear either side of my intended route. Anything else would be ( as a few posters have already mentioned, ) a bit pointless, as it would require additional and totally unneccesary mental gymnastics. Especially whe occasionally using 1:1,000.000 wac maps, where most of the water features change on a regular basis after the chart was commissioned.

 

If you really wanna make love standing in a hammock, then that's fine, but MY way WORKED for me, and most other pilots I knew. I really don't mind if you use North Up, that is your prerogative, but, on balance, I can't really see a logical argument "for" . . . . .Unless you like an additional challenge. As for having to turn the map around to read a place name,. . . . . . well,. . . . I'm not even going to comment. I usually plan my flights before I go, so that I know what the place names are.

 

Unless I'm flying In France, which I don't do very often. Then, I just flip the chart for a couple of seconds and read. . . . . mmmmm. . . . I'm not far from Avignon, ( I think they've got a Pont or something there. . . . )

 

I hope you can see my bridge,. . . . sorry. . . . Pont,. . . . . sorry. . . .point.

 

Phil.

 

PS, I HAVE NEVER - EVER GOT LOST. I ALWAYS KNOW EXACTLY WHERE I AM.

 

( Front left seat usually. . . ) unless I borrowed my mate John's Pitts S1S ) then I'd be in the middle.

 

( I have, however, been temporarily uncertain of what is underneath me. . . . . but that was when I inadvertantly had the chart North-up. . . )

 

 

[Phil Perry]

I wondered how many girls had voted North up!An aircraft doesn't have a table to lay maps out on, so North up is impractical.

No where's me compass and H4?

The last time I flew in a Shackleton with the RAF, it had a nice big flat map table. . . . It aso had a galley where you could brew up some char and a really good omelette. . . AAAHHH those were the days. . . . It's the Eurofighter boys who get to intecept the Russkies nowadays. . . . . ( no map table )

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Isn't it considered really bad luck to have ladies on a ship or something?

Only if you're married to her and she catches you with another one. . . . . . .

 

 

[facthunter]

Yeah. They are funny like that. No sense of humour perhaps? Blokes are more fair minded? Don't mind if she strays occasionally? Might learn something... Nev

 

 

[Guest Howard Hughes]

HH.. Say its not so!!!!!! side stick fly by wire???? Dreams shattered:( . I have very few rules in life.. One of them is not to have any computer system in between me and my elevator.... :( ...

The people at Hawker tell me it is so from 2015! However we will have our current (new) fleet for another 9 years at least!

 

 

[kaz3g]

'Ang on Kaz,. . . . . . My C-210 used to cruise at about 115 Knots, until I remembered to raise the gear. . . . . then it was somewhat quicker.. . . .If I was travelling at a leisurely Nautical pace of around, say, 24/27 knots in my aircraft carrier, . . . . then I'd have plenty of time to sort out my track made good from my drift angle against projected / required sea track. . . . Water all looks the same to me. . . . .PS, I HAVE NEVER - EVER GOT LOST. I ALWAYS KNOW EXACTLY WHERE I AM.

 

( Front left seat usually. . . ) unless I borrowed my mate John's Pitts S1S ) then I'd be in the middle.

 

( I have, however, been temporarily uncertain of what is underneath me. . . . . but that was when I inadvertantly had the chart North-up. . . )

Lovely post. Thanks Phil!

 

I guess that's the pont of my contention. Water does all look much the same when you are in the middle of thousands of square miles of it so you regularly plot your position and then join the plots. This makes it pretty clear (a) which way you are going, and (b) where you ought to be at any pont in time.

 

Data loggers and satnav have changed it all now, but I still have my compass, dividers and parallel rule... Nostalgia, mainly.

 

And HH... I do have an astrodome in the Auster. The roof is one big bubble of Perspex. Trouble is I couldn't keep it on even keel hands off for 10 seconds so the chance of taking a sight as PIC is zilch. The radio ops in the rear seat could have done it in wartime, though. Of course, the Auster never carried enough fuel to get lost, anyway!

 

kaz

 

 

[Guernsey]

Get on the Stage Alan.. Nev

Your right Nev, a mate of mine used to say, "Alan, you should be on the stage and there's one leaving in five minutes".

 

Alan.

 

 

[Guernsey]

Track up or North up, dear oh dear, what is wrong with you guys I use a very simple method:-

 

I get the map for my entire journey and visually scan it with my eyes remembering the entire map,

 

I then turn the map through 90 degrees and do the same thing, I then repeat the process every 90 degrees so that I have memorized all four directions, I then pack the map back into my flight bag and away I go. No matter what direction I am flying in, I can always read names on the map by mentally recalling the first map.

 

Alan.

 

 

[gareth lacey]

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Track up or North up, dear oh dear, what is wrong with you guys I use a very simple method:-I get the map for my entire journey and visually scan it with my eyes remembering the entire map,

 

I then turn the map through 90 degrees and do the same thing, I then repeat the process every 90 degrees so that I have memorized all four directions, I then pack the map back into my flight bag and away I go. No matter what direction I am flying in, I can always read names on the map by mentally recalling the first map.

 

Alan.

Yep,. . . . . . last time I flew in North Africa over the Sahara I used that method, it was dead easy to remember all the sand and gravel on the way to Timbuktoo. . . . .

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Lovely post. Thanks Phil!I guess that's the pont of my contention. Water does all look much the same when you are in the middle of thousands of square miles of it so you regularly plot your position and then join the plots. This makes it pretty clear (a) which way you are going, and (b) where you ought to be at any pont in time.

 

Data loggers and satnav have changed it all now, but I still have my compass, dividers and parallel rule... Nostalgia, mainly.

 

And HH... I do have an astrodome in the Auster. The roof is one big bubble of Perspex. Trouble is I couldn't keep it on even keel hands off for 10 seconds so the chance of taking a sight as PIC is zilch. The radio ops in the rear seat could have done it in wartime, though. Of course, the Auster never carried enough fuel to get lost, anyway!

 

kaz

We had a nice Auster 6 a while ago, the rear seat was set up to face rearwards, we were told it was for artillery spotting ( ! ) Great big clear panel for good rearward viz too. . . never tried to use a sextant in it though. . . I used to know how to work one too ! not much call for them now, , , ,but nowt wrong with nostalgia, it's all I've got left !

 

 

[peter]

North up.

 

I find it much easier to "plot" other aircraft positions that way.

 

I fold my charts in a rectangular pattern to fit on an A4 clipboard. If you have track up, do you fold so that the track is upwards aligned along the fore/aft axis of your cockpit so if the track is say 145M do you have 180T "up" or do you have 145M "up" With the chart " angled" on your clipboard ?

 

Peter