Do you prefer to navigate track up or north up...?

[Spriteah]

I like to keep the nose north and just slip to track.

 

 

[Dieselten]

A sextant only measures altitudes (i.e. angles) of celestial bodies above the horizon. That's all it does. It doesn't know a thing about North Up or Track Up. It just measures angles. Accurately. Very accurately, actually.

 

Marine navigation uses North Up on charts and radar displays, even when the radar is being used in anti-collision mode. For aviation most people seem to prefer Track Up. Oddly enough, the GPS receivers in my aeroplanes are set to North Up.

 

 

[damoski]

Too late to add my 2c? I use North up - I find I need fewer mental gymnastics to account for the aircraft heading with relation to north, than to have Track up but then think through next headings, landmarks, runway orientation and circuit joining, etc in relation to my Track and the bearing. I also find it quicker to give my location or check my location relation to radio calls, and to get my "navigation head" back on much faster, if the map is North Up to start with.

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Those last couple of posts seem darned reasonable to me. . . . . whatever blows yer frock up !

 

I just do what I find easy and comfortable. . . . both ways seem to work, but what a GOOD thread this was,. . .. it's amazing how a simple question can create so much interest innit ?? When the much mooted magnetic pole reversal actually happens. . . . . This will probably create another navigation thread . . . . as well as making a lot of money for the cartographers. . . . !

 

Phil

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Actually, I should admit that I write real-time embedded control software for a living. Some years ago, I worked for a company that put remote control alarm systems in (very expensive) vehicles where the operators at the monitoring centre could shut off the engine when the police instructed them it was safe to. Unfortunately, the software was of dubious quality (actually, it was total crap) and occasionally it would just shut off the engine without warning. I'm told that it was pretty exciting to be pushing hard around a fast sweeping bend and to suddenly lose the motor...Having said all that, it is possible to write good, safe control software, but it costs a *lot* of money. (Oops. Is this thread drifting again?? )

I'd love to tell you a story about vehicular control software and related issues, BUT. . . . . Driftypoos again. . . . . !!

 

I think I'll just send you a PM instead, as I don't think it rates a thread on an aviation site. . . . . now, have not done that yet, so I'll go and have a look at Ian's siteworks manual. . . . .

 

Phil

 

 

[cscotthendry]

You need a bigger aeroplane HH. All Airbus aircraft with side stick controls have two slide out map tables.[ATTACH=full]20457[/ATTACH]

I need a drinks trolley for my Nynja...

 

 

[cscotthendry]

Track up or North up, dear oh dear, what is wrong with you guys I use a very simple method:-I get the map for my entire journey and visually scan it with my eyes remembering the entire map,

 

I then turn the map through 90 degrees and do the same thing, I then repeat the process every 90 degrees so that I have memorized all four directions, I then pack the map back into my flight bag and away I go. No matter what direction I am flying in, I can always read names on the map by mentally recalling the first map.

 

Alan.

Alan: Funny guy! You should be on TV.

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Then we could turn you off.....

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

OK, this is almost a necropost now but just wanted to thank everyone that contributed, this was an interesting discussion.

 

It has led me to re-think my typical track-up approach to in-cockpit map reading. I'm going to have a crack at north-up, see if I can get the hang of it. I know this is going to be tricky when flying in a southerly direction but I really like the advantages - simple to determine wind direction, runway orientation / number and approach direction.

 

Of course it may also drive me nuts and get me lost.

 

 

[Gentreau]

As one of the proponents of North-up, I'd love to hear how you get on.

 

Please come back and tell us once you've tried it for a while.

 

 

[Jabiru Phil]

Good thread.

 

I have always used track up until I get near my destination, then north up. This orientates me with the runway directions.

 

Before doing it this way I did a diagram of my approach point on a separate runways map and drew my approach profile with my intended route with arrows.

 

New destinations of runways can be very confusing for me track up.

 

Haven't landed on the wrong runway since!

 

So two bob each way for me.

 

 

[Phil Perry]

I agree, it was a GOOD thread.

 

Amazing how opinions differ isn't it, and all posters having seemingly reasonable and well thought out reasons for their choice. I wonder if any pilots would change the method if presented with LOADS of ground feature, towns, airfields and other guides to use to keep on track, as one student once told me that he thought that there were TOO MANY details on the ground generally in the UK, and he found this clutter a bit confusing, whichever way he had the map orientated.

 

Perhaps if you're outbacking a bit, or navigating across vast expanses of not much over the Siberian tundra. . ., then would the map orientation be as much of an issue ? ( Discuss ? )

 

 

[Phil Perry]

And Another thing. . . . .!

 

In my early days of instrument flight training, one ( very good ) instructor suggested that I try to keep a "Mental Picture" of where the aircraft was in relation to the chart and the crapload of information I could see moving about on the dash. . . . . Initially, I thought he was taking the mickey, but after a while it actually worked. In later lessons he used to ask "OK, Where's the runway now ? " and after a while I could respond fairly quickly with a sensible reply like, "Over me left shoulder" or, off to the right about 50 degrees. . . . this really helped, and meant that I learned to anticipate a lot better, and didn't have to make over - steep, late turns to slot onto a localiser at the published position,( this is important when flying into somewhere like Malaga, Spain, otherwise you could end up amongst a lot of rocks. . . .) and could estimate and correct for drift a lot easier when flying a holding pattern over a beacon too.

 

( Has any of yoou worthies ever flown a DME Arc for real, ? I havent, and neither has my mate Dave ( Airbus 320 Capt ) either. . . wonder if that procedure is still used, . . . .)

 

This instructor said he called this procedure "SPATIAL ORIENTATION" not to be confused with the other one, which was also quite popular amongst I/R trainees fromm time to time ! ! !

 

Maybe all the North-Up / Track-Up blokes could just read the chart and then use "Mental Mapping" ? ? ? would this save time I wonder ?

 

I also wonder if regular Instrument pilots nowadays hold their Jepps North up or track up ( ! )

 

I THOUGHT I'D BETTER MENTION THE THREAD ( ! ) AS I'M SLIGHTLY OFF IT HERE ( SORRY GUYS )

 

( HH - Shtumm - I'm only joking )

 

 

[Guest sunfish]

The school and instructors attempted to teach me track up Navigation during my PPL some years ago and I politely refused. I have been navigating North up since my Dad taught me to read a map and navigate when I was Seven years old. Been doing it that way ever since on foot and on the water. Too old to change now.

 

 

[jakej]

Come on guys, get over it. Whatever works for you is good. Next some will be saying that us left handers have got it wrong too :-)

 

 

[Phil Perry]

The school and instructors attempted to teach me track up Navigation during my PPL some years ago and I politely refused. I have been navigating North up since my Dad taught me to read a map and navigate when I was Seven years old. Been doing it that way ever since on foot and on the water. Too old to change now.

Bang On Sunfish. . . . .

 

I have the same problem with loads of other things which slot into the "Old Dog - New Tricks. . . " subject. . . I Prefer my own method, it obviously worked, ( most of the time anyhow ) as I'm alive and still here droning on about it !!! Interesting thread read though innit ? Phil

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Come on guys, get over it. Whatever works for you is good. Next some will be saying that us left handers have got it wrong too :-)

Nooooo . . . left hookers have never got it wrong Jake, Jimi Hendrix used to play right handed guitars upside down all the time but he was left handed, I just did a gig using someone else's left handed stratocaster upside down and I didn't have any problems transposing the chords,, does that make me a brilliant musician ? or just weird I wonder. . . . ( Mind you, the tunes were a bit simple. . . )

 

Anyway, I'd like to thank Gnarly Gnu for a very entertaining thread, . . .how the hell I got from that to Fender guitars, I dunno. . . . sorry Gnarly.

 

By the way Jake,. . . when you're holding your stick or map, which hand do you hold the stick and or map in ?? I asked because a left handed mate of mine has an aircraft with the throttle on the left side and he's fuming that the LAA won't let him put it somewhere else, . . . I have to be honest, although I'm right handed generally, I don't mind which hand does what, with the different types that I fly, you either like it or lump wherever they put the controls I guess . . . .do you have a preference I wonder ?

 

Phil

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

Sunfish (or others, HH?) what method do the ATPL folk use? Is it standardised? (sorry if this was already discussed, might have forgotten)

 

 

[Guest Howard Hughes]

Whether it be map, GPS, or FMS, always track up!

Hi GG, above quoted from the second post on the thread...

Still no change from me. As for a standard? Probably track up would be the most commonly used, especially on FMS type installations!

 

 

[Guest Pontius Pilot]

Sunfish (or others, HH?) what method do the ATPL folk use? Is it standardised? (sorry if this was already discussed, might have forgotten)

If you're talking airliners, as opposed to those that fly them, then it's either track or heading up, depending on the airline's preference. Track up is the better of the two. You can check a route on the map and, when selected, the map changes to North up but this is not a navigating function and the aircraft position is not displayed in this mode.

 

I know it's personal choice but some of the reasons for choosing North up are certainly 'interesting'. Why does it matter that you can better visualise the direction of the wind? It doesn't matter where it's coming from, what's important is where it's blowing relative to your track 'cos that's what's going to influence where you're going to point your machine in order to stay on the line you've drawn. Better able to 'plot' other aircraft? You're told by ATC that you've got traffic West of you, 3 miles. You're tracking 150, do you really need a map to realise he's 120 degrees off your right side? I won't expand the point with more examples but if you're concerned with the proximity of traffic then the last thing you should be doing is filling the windscreen in front of you with a map in order that you can 'plot' where he is. Fleet Air Arm always taught track up, so mariners using North up is a herring rouge Since we're navigating, what's the concern with names of towns etc? All you want to know is where you are relative to the line on your map, so you only need to check that the road/rail junction on the edge of the town passes down your left side, as it should, at the correct time. Likewise, that you fly over a large lake at the bottom of a hill 10 minutes later. It doesn't matter that the town is called Mangelodingup or the lake's called Bert.

 

Miserable git, aren't I, especially for my first post

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Miserable git, aren't I, especially for my first post

No Pontius, I disagree, . . . . you make a very pertinent point AND. . . . . I'm glad you POSTED. rather than washing your hands of the entire issue like your much earlier namesake. . . .( ! )

 

Phil

 

 

[Phil Perry]

I also find it fascinating that there appear to be many different ways of accomplishing a similar task, . . . . vive la difference ?

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

Thanks for that Pontius and welcome.... innovative name BTW!!