Are Jabiru engines really that bad?

[Guest Maj Millard]

Error, and your not grasping at straws relying on a magazine artical for your facts ???...................................Maj...

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Well your right , there not a lot of details there at all. Additionally I am familiar with the country in those parts, and I would certainly question their decision to take the route they did, in a relativly new aircraft and engine in doubtfull weather. I'm not even sure I would select that route in clear WX !!...there are some nasty mountains through there..........................Maj...

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

And how about the one that exploded recently in Europe killing father and son, due to a supected fuel-tank leak, and onboard explosion ?. the fathers body was found some considerable distance from the wreckage, suggesting he'd been blown out the side.......................................................Maj...

 

 

[Guest Error404]

As tragic as that is I did say Australian fatalities. That one is a little shady as to what happened.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

I agree..................................................Maj...

 

 

[Keenaviator]

I can think of several. How about the two gentlemen from WA who picked up a new one at Bundy, and didn't make it pass the ranges before coming to grief ???...............Maj...

And your point?

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

My point keenaviator was in reply to error404, who stated there had never been any Jab fatalities in Australia, as you would have noticed if you had read the prev posts...........................................Maj...

 

 

[Gentreau]

And how about the one that exploded recently in Europe killing father and son, due to a supected fuel-tank leak, and onboard explosion ?. the fathers body was found some considerable distance from the wreckage, suggesting he'd been blown out the side.......................................................Maj...

Hi Maj, where do you get the information regarding the father being found some distance away ?

 

The only mention in the BEA report is that the remains of the port wing were found approx. 200m from the rest of the wreckage.

 

There was no sign of explosion, only structural failure of the wings. Both wings snapped at about 1.2m from the tips and the wings disconnected from the fuselage. All the indications are of a structural failure in flight and the aftercast indicates storms and possible severe turbulance in the area.

 

The official report (in French) is here http://www.bea.aero/docspa/2012/g-mp120629/pdf/g-mp120629.pdf

 

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[Ultralights]

Was it over 38 deg C?

 

 

[David Isaac]

In that case you might as well be flying behind a Rotax 582. That's supposed to be overhauled every 300hrs, and yet there are loads of them running way past that figure. Sure you'll be climbing a bit slower, but you'll spend a lot less money and have a greater payload..

The problem with that statement Gentreau is that you are implying that if you need to implement a smart maintenance regime at 300 hrs to get the TBO you might as well be flying a 2 stroke.

Would you by extension say the same thing about the ubiquitous De Haviland Gypsy major engine which also should have the heads off at 300 hrs if you are a smart operator and want to make the 1500 hr (late model) TBO? No one argues the Gypsy is a strong motor, it just needs some love and care along the way and typically does not have major failure modes.

 

I agree that an expensive high quality engine should not need this, but even a Lycoming or Continental wont make TBO without a Top overhaul approaching 1000 to 1200 hrs active service.

 

The Jab motor is a low cost motor and you get what you pay for. If doing a top at 300hrs was recommended, I would cost that into the ownership and absolutely do the work. The problem is I get the impression that perhaps Jabiru don't recommend that and that is hard to understand. The problem is the jab motor has known failure modes and I will go out on a limb here and state that IMHO RA Aus fails to discharge its duty of care by not publicising the known issues, or is it a failure to put pressure on jabiru to come clean on the issues, or perhaps RA Aus have put pressure on Jabiru and Jabiru are reluctant to go public on the known failure modes. Could that be because jabiru is a major sponsor ... I don't know, but it begs the question why RA Aus remains silent on these issues which only feeds the controversy over a rather good Australian product. A great pity really.

 

 

[Gentreau]

What I'm really implying is that I'd prefer an engine which under-promises and over-delivers than the opposite.

 

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[alf jessup]

Nope. What I'm saying is that I think the odds of an engine failure with the Rotax are less than the odds with a Jab.Nice job at twisting my words though. You're not a politician or a business exec are you?

No Scott he is a farmer and a good one at that

 

Alf

 

 

[Sapphire]

At Narrogin where I "hung" out for a while there were a number of Jabs around and professionally maintained locally. The older ones, 300 + hours, needed regular replacement of cyl heads at a cost of about 5 0r 6 grand every 300-400 hrs. The engine needs frequent leak down checks . If that is not done then you increase likely hood of engine failure. I worked out the cost of maintaining Rotax 447/503[not much longer] at 300 tbo and it is about $5000 per overhaul or $30,000 per 1800 hours. How does that compare to a Jab?

 

 

[Gentreau]

That pricing sounds high to me.

 

Here in France, I can get a Rotax 582 overhauled by an approved service centre for a fixed price of 2000 EUR, that's about 2500 AUD.

 

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[fly_tornado]

Nothing is cheap in oz

 

 

[facthunter]

Talk is. Nev

 

 

[fly_tornado]

cheaper in the states

 

 

[Sapphire]

That pricing sounds high to me.Here in France, I can get a Rotax 582 overhauled by an approved service centre for a fixed price of 2000 EUR, that's about 2500 AUD.

 

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Does that include replacing the crankshaft?

 

 

[AeroGirl]

... state that IMHO RA Aus fails to discharge its duty of care by not publicising the known issues, or is it a failure to put pressure on jabiru to come clean on the issues, or perhaps RA Aus have put pressure on Jabiru and Jabiru are reluctant to go public on the known failure modes. Could that be because jabiru is a major sponsor ... I don't know, but it begs the question why RA Aus remains silent on these issues which only feeds the controversy over a rather good Australian product. A great pity really...

I believe the issue with RAAus failing to publicise Jabiru engine failures, or force Jabiru to do something about it comes down to statistics. In RAAus eyes, there is simply not that many engine failures to warrant action, this is because people are not reporting the failures to RAAus, but seam to be just going back to Jabiru for repairs. Jabiru have not got a reason to make the statistics public, they probably want to suppress them, as they are in the business of selling aircraft/engines (as dodgy as the engines appear to be), and do not want to loose business by issuing a recall, or the public loosing confidence in their engines by offering the option of installing a Rotax instead of the Jabiru engine in their aircraft.

 

So the answer would seam to be, if you own an aircraft with a Jabiru engine (or any other engine), and have an engine failure, report it to RAAus, (or CASA for VH rego) then RAAus has some statistics to use to force some action against the manufacture. Without those statistics, RAAus cannot do anything.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Thats dead right Sally, but not only failures, defects of ANY kind need to be reported. Particularly quality assurance issues. Spend the 5 minutes filling out the form..Send it in..... Otherwise NOTHING will ever happen..!!!!

 

 

[Sapphire]

Talk is. Nev

Talk is cheap-I never charged a cent-so far

 

 

[facthunter]

You can charge for advice. Nev

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Can anyone indicate honestly, either their own, or someone they know, and can prove, that they have a 2200 engine that made 1000 hour top end without EVER having a problem, ie, never being opened up for anything more than normal scheduled maint, and ignoring minor issues. I dont want to hear that yours made it, but you replaced the heads at 220, and 600, and top ended at 800... I want to know if ANY jab 2200 engines made it all the way.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

time for your angry pills!

 

 

[Thirsty]

My old mate bought his J160 in 2007 and his engine made it to 1000 hrs with the only issue being a thru bolt breaking at around 950 or so. Not quite 1000 but close :)