facthunter Posted February 6, 2013 Posted February 6, 2013 A "fresh" 0-200 is probably as reliable an engine as you will get. Most of them have too many hours on them, but nothing lasts for ever. What's happened to the 0-200D ? ( Continental).. They were made brand new. Lightened version of the older model. Nev
Vev Posted February 6, 2013 Posted February 6, 2013 What's happened to the 0-200D ? ( Continental).. They were made brand new. Lightened version of the older model. Nev We have a couple of these 0-200D engines in our new Cessna Skycatcher 162's in both RAA and GA ... no problems with these engines so far, albeit they are only 12 months old.... time will tell. Cheers Vev
motzartmerv Posted February 6, 2013 Posted February 6, 2013 Wow. Yiour the first person ive seen operating these .. How are the acft going?
Vev Posted February 6, 2013 Posted February 6, 2013 Wow. Yiour the first person ive seen operating these .. How are the acft going? Hey Merv They are fun to fly ... they jump off the ground ... next time you escape Nowra and head South come for a fly with me.
motzartmerv Posted February 6, 2013 Posted February 6, 2013 Hey MervThey are fun to fly ... they jump off the ground ... next time you escape Nowra and head South come for a fly with me. Bloody oath 1
fly_tornado Posted February 7, 2013 Posted February 7, 2013 Sh!t US Jabiru owners say: What I have found on my 3300 and one other one is that there was a fair amount of rust in the cylinders which probably occurred on the trip over on the boat. I honed mine out before I ran it, and am glad I did as the piston to cylinder clearance was anywhere from .002 (too tight for an air cooled engine) and .005" I was surprised at the difference. I honed them out to .004" (except for the larger one). Both engines were older solid lifter ones, and maybe that could be a difference as well. A little extra clearance won't make it quit on you, but too tight could. That quote is from the Sonex list discussing oil coolers. Quality issues? What quality issues. 1
facthunter Posted February 7, 2013 Posted February 7, 2013 Those fits and variations are not acceptable. If the motors have been run and not properly inhibited they will rust quite badly and this is a safety issue and applies to all aircraft cylinders that are steel. The 912 Rotax is aluminium with a Nikasil ( or equivalent ) coating. This is a good hard wearing surface and the cylinder being aluminium expands more like the pistons and needs less running clearence and holds compression better and doesn't rust (ever) . If an aero engine is run with rusty cylinders, it can "gunk" up all the rings and the engine may easily fail in a big way. If you suspect rust inspect the cylinders with a boroscope. Don't just run it and hope. Nev
jetjr Posted February 7, 2013 Posted February 7, 2013 If an aero engine is run with rusty cylinders, it can "gunk" up all the rings and the engine may easily fail in a big way. If you suspect rust inspect the cylinders with a boroscope. Don't just run it and hope. Nev If I recall this is the purpose of adding flashlube to fuel, reduces corrosion in bores. Stuck rings has always been a problem The Sonex guy is discussing NEW solid lifter engines.... Very old info.
facthunter Posted February 7, 2013 Posted February 7, 2013 They can be gunked up with rust scraped from the bores or affected by carbon due often to overheating. Any kind of lubricant added to the fuel would help but the best thing is to never run your engine for a short period and put it away when it hasn't reached full operating temperature, and inhibit when not used. There are prescribed ways of inhibiting engines that are not in use for extended periods. There was information on the CASA site the last time I looked. It is not just the bores but things like valve stems and valve seats as well as the general interior of the engine. Accessory gearbox etc. Nev
Phil Perry Posted February 8, 2013 Posted February 8, 2013 As I mentioned in an earlier post on a similar thread,. . . . We don't seem to have anything like the problems with Jab engines that I've seen on this forum . . . . very few in fact. . . . . . I did, however check,. . . .and found that NO flying training organisations whatsoever in the UK use Jabiru aircraft. In the UK, you can only use an aircraft for training purposes for hire or reward, IF the aircraft is 1) Approved, and 2) factory built, UNLESS. . . . . the aircraft is owned by ONE person, not a syndicate or group, THEN that individual owner, and his blood relatives. . . ( ? ) may be trained by a qualified instructor in his / her own aircraft. Maybe this is the prime reason. . . . . ? We have some pretty arcane rules here. . . . . Still checking. . . . . But my mate Greg, and my other friend Roger, both owners of Jabbies, are gobsmacked at what I've told them about what I've seen on the Australian forums in this regard.. . . . so is our control group much too small ?? . . . . has any of you accessed the Jabiru Owners website here in the UK to see what, if any problems are being experienced, so see if any general conclusions can be drawn from this ? and what about other countries,. . . ? any input ? Interesting
Kyle Communications Posted February 8, 2013 Posted February 8, 2013 Maybe it has all got to do with temperature effects?......England is much colder than here our average temps are far higher here
fly_tornado Posted February 9, 2013 Posted February 9, 2013 Tim the Tornado owner in the US found out his engine blow due to a dropped exhaust valve. My theory is the thermal mass of the Jab is too small for its capacity, which allows it too over heat very quickly due to the limited effectiveness of air cooling. The poor quality control doesn't help.
Phil Perry Posted February 9, 2013 Posted February 9, 2013 Maybe it has all got to do with temperature effects?......England is much colder than here our average temps are far higher here Possibly Mark, perhaps this, along with Tornado's comment about thermal mass and air cooling can combine to produce undesireably rapid overheating in high ambient temps, Quality Control I can't comment on, since I've never operated one of these engines as an owner, nor had any dealings with the manufacturers. There has to be some combination of effects to produce the controversy surrounding this powerplant, I've never seen anything like it, with all the polarised opinions and arguments regarding problems and sugggested solutions involved. . .! ( Off topic for a sec Mark. . . . .are you fit as a Mallee bull and twice as dangerous yet ? ) Phil
Gentreau Posted February 9, 2013 Posted February 9, 2013 Possibly Mark, perhaps this, along with Tornado's comment about thermal mass and air cooling can combine to produce undesireably rapid overheating in high ambient temps,....... Which might be understandable if the manufacturer was in Sweden, Canada, the UK, or anywhere else with low ambient temperatures. .
Phil Perry Posted February 9, 2013 Posted February 9, 2013 Which might be understandable if the manufacturer was in Sweden, Canada, the UK, or anywhere else with low ambient temperatures.. Hi Clive. . . . . I think that the temperature thing has been discusssed to death in other threads,. . . but I'm somewhat intrigued as to why our Jabiru users in the UK are reporting NONE of the massive problems I've seen on this particular forum. . . . . . . Interesting to say the least of it. . . . . . . . Simon,. . . A close friend and operator of a Jabiru engine, said that he'd looked at the Rotax 912 series, and opted for the Jab engine as it looked a bit more sensible,. . . .whereas the Rotax version looked like a BORG warrior from Star Trek,. . . with pipes and wires going everywhere, . . . he thought that the Rotax looked a little too complicated, and therefore, it might be more liable to silly system failures,. . . where the Jabiru appeared to be a more sensible choice,. . .and he is still happy with his Jab engine after flying with it for over 700 hours. . . . . . Maybe it actually IS a temperature related problem,. . . . . . . but unless there is a straw poll from the Aussies,. . . then we'll never have a benchmark to make a sensible conclusion. . . ?
Guest sunfish Posted February 9, 2013 Posted February 9, 2013 General wisdom is that the heads overheat and distort . The bottom end is generally regarded as reliable and the Six cylinder is smoooth.. The carb is a disgrace. The company doesn't seem interested in customer support from what I've heard. In any case, 3300rpm is too much. Fuel injection and better heads might improve things.
Kyle Communications Posted March 22, 2013 Posted March 22, 2013 I just heard today that one of the only 2 ever certified jabs with Rotax 912 in them is now at YCAB and used online for training. I know that Bill has sworn he will never buy another jab powered aircraft he has had heaps of drama I am told with them. As with most people he loves the aircraft but not the engines so looks like he has his dream fulfilled. A fully certified Rotax powered Jabiru aircraft.
Keenaviator Posted March 22, 2013 Posted March 22, 2013 Hi Clive. . . . . I think that the temperature thing has been discusssed to death in other threads,. . . but I'm somewhat intrigued as to why our Jabiru users in the UK are reporting NONE of the massive problems I've seen on this particular forum. . . . . . . Interesting to say the least of it. . . . . . . . Simon,. . . A close friend and operator of a Jabiru engine, said that he'd looked at the Rotax 912 series, and opted for the Jab engine as it looked a bit more sensible,. . . .whereas the Rotax version looked like a BORG warrior from Star Trek,. . . with pipes and wires going everywhere, . . . he thought that the Rotax looked a little too complicated, and therefore, it might be more liable to silly system failures,. . . where the Jabiru appeared to be a more sensible choice,. . .and he is still happy with his Jab engine after flying with it for over 700 hours. . . . . .Maybe it actually IS a temperature related problem,. . . . . . . but unless there is a straw poll from the Aussies,. . . then we'll never have a benchmark to make a sensible conclusion. . . ? It may well be a temperature related issue as most of the sooking seems to be coming from Australian northern states. Regards, Laurie.
dazza 38 Posted March 22, 2013 Posted March 22, 2013 I will say this, some operators have had a great run. Some operators have had a not very good run. BOTH operators have maintained them by the book. I still after all these years have no idea why this is so. Reminds me of my favourite book by Ernest K Gann. Fate is the Hunter.
bexrbetter Posted March 22, 2013 Posted March 22, 2013 Jabirus are so common, why would you buy something that you can rent? Well that would be the sensible thing to do but on the other hand we get married don't we? 1 1 1
Jabiru7252 Posted March 22, 2013 Posted March 22, 2013 Does anybody know the MTBF (Mean Time Between failures) for the Jabiru engines (2200cc) and the Rotax engines. Would make for an interesting read.
nong Posted March 22, 2013 Posted March 22, 2013 General wisdom is that the heads overheat and distort . The bottom end is generally regarded as reliable and the Six cylinder is smoooth.. The carb is a disgrace. The company doesn't seem interested in customer support from what I've heard. In any case, 3300rpm is too much. Fuel injection and better heads might improve things. What is your engineering basis for your claim that "3300rpm is too much"? A mean piston speed of only 488.4 metres per minute at the rarely seen 3300 rpm spells low stressed to me. The Lycoming IO-233 comes in at 551.04 metres per minute at 2,800 rpm and Rotax 912 ULS at a harder working 707.6 metres per minute at 5,800 rpm. 1
dazza 38 Posted March 22, 2013 Posted March 22, 2013 Does anybody know the MTBF (Mean Time Between failures) for the Jabiru engines (2200cc) and the Rotax engines. Would make for an interesting read. Yep as a former ex RAAF aircraft technician.I have a pretty good handle on what MTBF means. It means "predicted time before failure" & Jabiru don't have a very good record at meeting MTBF. I'm pretty sure that Rotax has a better track record of meeting MTBF than Jabiru has . Just sayin. Don't sugar coat it.
bexrbetter Posted March 22, 2013 Posted March 22, 2013 Jab .. piston speed of only 488.4 metres per minute at the rarely seen 3300 rpm spells low stressed .....Lycoming IO-233 comes in at 551.04 metres ... Indeed it is low stressed and glad to see someone recognises piston speed is the factor not rpm, as your example with the Lycoming shows, but it seems to be quite clear that Jab's do not have lower end problems so it's a moot point. The extra rpm however can effect many other systems but most importantly it is the extra heat that has to be disipitated (to the fourth?) which I think sunfish was alluding too?
Phil Perry Posted March 22, 2013 Posted March 22, 2013 I will say this, some operators have had a great run. Some operators have had a not very good run. BOTH operators have maintained them by the book. I still after all these years have no idea why this is so. Reminds me of my favourite book by Ernest K Gann. Fate is the Hunter. Dazz. . . . have a look around for a book called "Behind the cockpit door" by Arthur Whitlock. If you enjoyed Ernie's book ( as much as I did. . .) you'll like that one too. If you can't find it, PM me a snail-mail address and I'll send you mine, if you promise to return it one day ! ! ! ! Phil 1
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