Head in the clouds Posted February 6, 2013 Posted February 6, 2013 Alan, I think we have to establish IF there was in fact an engine or structural problem.We know the day was fine and clear however the news media made some statements that have me possibly thinking differently. We await the results of an official enquiry. Hi Mike, differently about the weather conditions? I'm on the Gold Coast about 100km south of the site and it was glorious flying weather here, especially clear after the big rains of the previous week. Or statements that made you think differently about engine failure? ...We dont know enough yet IMHO to say there even was engine trouble.... Yes, well my post was really aimed at getting a bit more information about the flightpath prior to the crash. The radar path should show something of a gradual descent and perhaps meandering if someone was searching for a small spot to squeeze down on forestry tracks for example, or a vertical descent indicative of structural failure... The tree damage at the crash site certainly looks extremely localised and the wing structure threaded onto a tree bole, no Mayday etc all seem more indicative of structural failure IMHO.
Zibi Posted February 6, 2013 Posted February 6, 2013 Was there low cloud that day? Its a valid question, and certainly one that deserves discussion from a 'learny' point of view, and like a million other things, will need to be ruled out or in as a factor before we apply it to this particular accident. I was flying that morning around Caboolture and I don't remember seeing any clouds. Although I was about 5-10 NM east from where this has happened and finished just before that aircraft has departed. One thing that could have a factor in choosing altitude was a bit (I'd say 15-20 knots, no GPS and I wasn't doing any ground speed calculations, so take that more as a feeling) of westerly or south westerly wind above 2000', below 2000 it was much calmer and a bit colder.
ave8rr Posted February 6, 2013 Posted February 6, 2013 Hi Mike, differently about the weather conditions? I'm on the Gold Coast about 100km south of the site and it was glorious flying weather here, especially clear after the big rains of the previous week. Or statements that made you think differently about engine failure? Sorry Alan. Reread my post. What I mean were statements made by the Media about the pilot that have me thinking differently. Not the weather. We know that was fine and clear.
Guest Error404 Posted February 6, 2013 Posted February 6, 2013 Another thing that will need to be addressed is the history of structural problems with the Gazelle (skyfox). You would be likely be referring to the ailerons falling off mid-flight. I thought we were long over those days or at least I hoped we were.
barandbrew Posted February 6, 2013 Posted February 6, 2013 It goes much deeper than that error. Motzartmerv would you start a new thread in the Gazelle section and explain what you mean Thanks
motzartmerv Posted February 6, 2013 Posted February 6, 2013 Barand. I dont think a new thread is needed. And its not as ominous as that sounds. All the info re gazelle and skyfox issues is out there. Id hate to come across as bagging the aircraft which I would never do, i love them. I always have. Since I learned in a Skyfox some time ago. There were several Mods and AD's brought out for skyfox's and Gazelle's. Just from memory, some of these were: Aileron mass balancing Aileron hanger strengthening Aileron torque tube strengthening Torque tube gussets leading edge attachments re sheathing Underside carry through strut Cluster joint strengthening Im in NO way suggesting that any of these weren't done on this acft. The design is good, tried, tested and im sure hundreds of thousands of hours have been flown in them around the world to date. But the Spar is lifed and whenever I hear of an accident in one I immediately think of the structural issues. Again, not to infer that this pilot was operating outside the limits, but the aircraft is a good solid design but has to be flown within its limits. Like any I spose, but its crucial with the skyfox. And unfortunalty, it never has to be the person flying it that pays the price. We used to operate a couple of them, and I was always concerned about what happend to it in the PAST. Anyway, I hope im not coming across as trying to infer that any of these problems contributed to the crash, im just saying that surely a line of enquirie would be made in this direction due to the history of the design.
Guest Error404 Posted February 6, 2013 Posted February 6, 2013 Wasn't there an addon under the fuse from lower wing strut attachment to the other ? Frustrating part is how it could be anything as even hitting a bird could take out an aileron and end it.
motzartmerv Posted February 6, 2013 Posted February 6, 2013 yes the carry through strut was an AD that came about after my Instructors unfortunate demise in Skyfox 748.
ave8rr Posted February 6, 2013 Posted February 6, 2013 Wasn't there an addon under the fuse from lower wing strut attachment to the other ? Frustrating part is how it could be anything as even hitting a bird could take out an aileron and end it. IF there is a hint of anything "structural" with this accident then there should be something put ASAP to ALL owners / operators of this type.
motzartmerv Posted February 6, 2013 Posted February 6, 2013 Dammit..I know I should shutup sometimes. I knew this would happen. Im not saying there was any problem, Im just saying if I were investigating I would be looking down those lines as part of ruling everything out. I dont have any more info or evidence than anyone else. On a bright blue sunny day, with no cloud or any yukky weather, an experienced pilot with enough fuel for the flight. Any rational person would at least consider the possibility. 1 3
facthunter Posted February 6, 2013 Posted February 6, 2013 true. This discussion shows the need for an investigation and report. Quite a lot of these flying. I've seen some corrosion on the frame tubes too and that is without looking inside. Nev
Patrick Normoyle Posted February 6, 2013 Posted February 6, 2013 Motzy, I agree with your statement, great little aircraft, I flew one recently from Proserpine to Monto, at 6500ft on top with 5 - 10 kts on the tail it was like soaring with the gods, I had the doors off and just loved every second of the flight, was a tail dragging Kitfox, but awesome non the less. All aircraft deserve our respect, due diligence and care, and as you say, it could have been a bird, bad fuel, atmospheric conditions, any number of factors. I hope we hear a conclusive determination of cause / events relating to this and other accidents / events. All the information adds to our learning and development as better airmen or air women. 2
dan3111 Posted February 6, 2013 Posted February 6, 2013 It,s really sad to here this happen so close to home and we have had the worse 12 months up here in the last 15 years one every three months or so , it,s early days in this investigation what went wrong with this plane , you most likely rule out weather but . So comes down to a few different things that could have happened to cause this . I don,t know about this case because no one seen her go in at all so a bit of guess work will have to take place with the investigation with the fact they dig up . In other cases of ultralight crash causing death in north brisbane area a lot of people seem to stop flying the plane when it,s in trouble at about 600 to 300 feet so then spins or free fall into the ground instead of just landing into the biggest bushy tree they can find and hoping for the best . Keep safe cheers
GAFA Posted February 6, 2013 Posted February 6, 2013 Rather than being an aircaft issue, the pilot could have suffered a serve medical condition ie heart attack (happens in cars).
Guernsey Posted February 7, 2013 Posted February 7, 2013 Motzy, I agree with your statement, great little aircraft, I flew one recently from Proserpine to Monto, at 6500ft on top with 5 - 10 kts on the tail it was like soaring with the gods, I had the doors off and just loved every second of the flight, was a tail dragging Kitfox, but awesome non the less. All aircraft deserve our respect, due diligence and care, and as you say, it could have been a bird, bad fuel, atmospheric conditions, any number of factors. I hope we hear a conclusive determination of cause / events relating to this and other accidents / events. All the information adds to our learning and development as better airmen or air women. Not trying to be picky here but the aircraft was a Gazelle (nose wheel sky fox ) not a Kitfox. Alan.
Patrick Normoyle Posted February 7, 2013 Posted February 7, 2013 Yeah I got that, much the same thing thou, they are both great versions of much the same thing. Once a tail dragger pilot, always a tail dragger pilot I guess. 1
DGL Fox Posted February 7, 2013 Posted February 7, 2013 I think all that can be said has been said on this thread..finish it now..it going no where now..just all speculation... 4
Ballpoint 246niner Posted February 7, 2013 Posted February 7, 2013 [quote="Head in tthink there are matters that need some discussion to help prevent this kind of thing happening again. I'm assuming that the verified 800'AGL referred to above was when the Gazelle dropped off radar and so we can probably assume that the engine trouble began prior to that, and at a greater height. Is there any indication from the radar flightpath and alt of where and when the engine trouble began? I went to the Beerburrum-Woodford Rd on Google Earth, dropped my elevation down to 800ft/260m, If you had engine problems at woodford, why would you head nth east over heavily forested areas and then when questioned on radio as to your relative location (for separation) by another aircraft just say"you were "descending below them" and not declare a PAN or MATDAY? As to weather, I fly over a 1000 hrs a year in the area under the CTA LL of 3500, there are numerous safe landing options over hundreds of safe paddocks despite the forestry areas, but like all coastal transition areas weather can change but you just manage this as a competent pilot maintaining VMC. If you're not sure go do a refresh with your local school, it may just help you!
Head in the clouds Posted February 7, 2013 Posted February 7, 2013 This is where my (HITC) quote finished[/color] If you had engine problems at woodford, why would you head nth east over heavily forested areas and then when questioned on radio as to your relative location (for separation) by another aircraft just say"you were "descending below them" and not declare a PAN or MATDAY? As to weather, I fly over a 1000 hrs a year in the area under the CTA LL of 3500, there are numerous safe landing options over hundreds of safe paddocks despite the forestry areas, but like all coastal transition areas weather can change but you just manage this as a competent pilot maintaining VMC. If you're not sure go do a refresh with your local school, it may just help you! Well BP2469, I'm not sure if this is just a rant or if it's aimed at me, if it is I can't see why. I just asked about the area and alt to get more info and up to this stage it was only you who was offering any. Until this I (we) didn't know anything about whether she was at Woodford or perhaps 20Nm away nearer Beerburrum, the western end of the road offers more clear spaces is all I said. And I didn't know anything about any traffic radio communications, thanks for revealing what you know. And I didn't know, but was seeking information about, any course - NE from Woodford or whatever. I do quite understand that you're under a lot of stress, given that you know the people involved personally but... If you fly over a thousand hours a year - and you're Rec commercial I understand(?) - well perhaps you should keep that off public forum since 1000hrs/yr has always been my cutoff point after that I'm on enforced holiday from flying by law, don't the CARs apply to RAA pilots? And thanks for the advice of doing a refresh at my local training school, as a pilot for 37 years, former CFI and 25 years as commercial pilot including CP in both rotary and fixed wing I have done the odd bit of check and training but I'm always listening and learn something new whenever I fly with someone else, so book me in and send me a PM, I'll be there Cheers, Alan
Ballpoint 246niner Posted February 7, 2013 Posted February 7, 2013 Well BP2469, I'm not sure if this is just a rant or if it's aimed at me, if it is I can't see why. I just asked about the area and alt to get more info and up to this stage it was only you who was offering any. Until this I (we) didn't know anything about whether she was at Woodford or perhaps 20Nm away nearer Beerburrum, the western end of the road offers more clear spaces is all I said. And I didn't know anything about any traffic radio communications, thanks for revealing what you know. And I didn't know, but was seeking information about, any course - NE from Woodford or whatever.I do quite understand that you're under a lot of stress, given that you know the people involved personally but... If you fly over a thousand hours a year - and you're Rec commercial I understand(?) - well perhaps you should keep that off public forum since 1000hrs/yr has always been my cutoff point after that I'm on enforced holiday from flying by law, don't the CARs apply to RAA pilots? And thanks for the advice of doing ...... Head- no my apologies, the reply was not aimed at you and I respect everything you have said, it would just be nice if people would stop speculating about instruction, engine failures, gazelles ADs etc and just look at the bigger picture. Granted, not everyone will be in possession of all the facts , and those that are looking for some Messiac answer as to what caused it so they can fly safer, won't find it here. My hours must be managed in accordance with all CASR 's just like any commercial operator, and they are, and will with stand any audit. Someone who transits the area on a once a year sojourn, hardly is apt to comment on the area'' s geography( not you in this case!). Accidents such as these, with media coverage, continue to sway public perception of the safety of aviation,particularly RA, and that affects all of us in some way or other, some more than others, whether we like it or not, we share the privilege and responsibility together. Please every one be vigilant and note the coroners report on this one, my understanding is ATSB is not investigating. Please do however leave an appropriate flight note/ SAR with someone, even for local flights. Safety starts the minute you decide to go to the airfield....
Ballpoint 246niner Posted February 7, 2013 Posted February 7, 2013 Sorry stuffed up on quote ref Head- no my apologies, the reply was not aimed at you and I respect everything you have said, it would just be nice if people would stop speculating about instruction, engine failures, gazelles ADs etc and just look at the bigger picture. Granted, not everyone will be in possession of all the facts , and those that are looking for some Messiac answer as to what caused it so they can fly safer, won't find it here. My hours must be managed in accordance with all CASR 's just like any commercial operator, and they are, and will with stand any audit. Someone who transits the area on a once a year sojourn, hardly is apt to comment on the area'' s geography( not you in this case!). Accidents such as these, with media coverage, continue to sway public perception of the safety of aviation,particularly RA, and that affects all of us in some way or other, some more than others, whether we like it or not, we share the privilege and responsibility together. Please every one be vigilant and note the coroners report on this one, my understanding is ATSB is not investigating. Please do however leave an appropriate flight note/ SAR with someone, even for local flights. Safety starts the minute you decide to go to the airfield.....
motzartmerv Posted February 7, 2013 Posted February 7, 2013 Hi guys. Sorry, I may have started some of this drama, and I certainly didnt mean to. I wasn't speculating BP. Not at all, in fact I was attempting to DEspeculate as some had already attributed this accident to engine failure. I was trying to say that there is any number of things that could have gone wrong, structural issues only ONE of them, and a witness saying an engine coughing doesn't mean diddly. I really hope that some sense comes from the accident. Some attributing factors discovered at least so we can all learn. Hope you are all holding up ok.
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