Practice forced landings

[nong]

Reading your posts, Bigfella, your fixation on the altimeter is inexplicable and should have been jumped on by your instructor. There is no place for the altimeter in this exercise!!

 

Successful forced landings are carried out by the application of practised judgement. Head out of the cockpit. Staring at dials is dangerous!

 

During 2012, I had the pleasure of adding two forced landings to my tally, one from a starting height of 400 feet AGL.

 

On both occasions I admit to simply using the time-honoured method that I teach, key point, then long base/short final.

 

As others advise, have your alighting strip selected before trouble strikes. You can use this method during your training. It takes a major stress and time waste out of the exercise. Your instructor should be impressed!

 

One thing not yet touched on is CRM.....Cockpit Resource Management.

 

On the occasion of the 400' AGL starting point incident, it was, frankly, a pretty hectic exercise, requiring all the concentration I had available. We were shooting for a paddock too short to land on. I told my passenger (who was familiar with the location and function of the cockpit controls) to operate the flaps and wheel brakes to my command.

 

The lesson here is : Use what ya got.

 

Oh. In case you are wondering. The landing roll described an arc of about 110 degrees, thus avoiding the need to punch through a fence.

 

Happy landings!

 

 

[Eric McCandless]

........On both occasions I admit to simply using the time-honoured method that I teach, key point, then long base/short final.

 

.....................

Hi Nong, would you mind describing this technique in a bit more detail.

 

Also can anyone describe any techniques for not concentrating on the altimeter for a PFL setup, as I admit to doing this as well, especially aborting a PFL at just above 500 feet.

 

All my PFLs so far have been done in the training area where I know the ground height, so the 1,500 foot and 1,000 foot key points work well, but will obviously not work with an unknown ground height area. Is it just a matter of judging ground height and using same key point height estimates?

 

I suppose I am getting better at judging height, but I am not sure I can judge the difference between 400 and 600 feet (for aborting a PFL), or between 1,200 and 1,800 feet (for a 1,500 feet key point) in unfamiliar surroundings for example. Should I ignore the altimeter completely in my practices as it will be of no use outside the training area.

 

I have probably done about 40 PFLs so far (have not added them up, so estimating), but all in the training area. I feel reasonably confident in doing PFLs in the training area, but would not be so confident outside the training area.

 

I understand forums are no substitute for instruction and practice and I will seek my instructors advice on this.

 

Thanks. Eric

 

 

[facthunter]

Eric , one thing you can believe is that your altimeter will not be any use unless you know the height of the terrain you are flying over. training and practice based on it is flawed. It might be relevant in the circuit but a distraction out in the field. If you do the exercise nicely and the ground is in the wrong place and you don't make your chosen strip, what is the point of it all? Forced landings are not often easy. A power off approach is not able to be compensated for if you get low on "profile". You should plan to overshoot with some method of getting rid of the excess height, because there is no adjustment for an error the other way, ( except track shortening) and if you are downwind you can't do that. You are still better to hit the upwind fence at a reduced speed , ( and you can land on a curved path) than the downwind one at your groundspeed or not make the runway at all. Nev

 

 

[robinsm]

Eric, when you start doing a lot of out landings, at other airports and strips, you will develop a feel for what is good and what is bad. I found it is something that you cant put numbers on. The procedure in the flybetter books is great and I practice this when I can. Keeps you within sight and landing space of your chosen landing place. Better to come in to high and have to sideslip off some height than miss it "by that much". How does the Jab sideslip by the way???

 

 

[Eric McCandless]

Eric, when you start doing a lot of out landings, at other airports and strips, you will develop a feel for what is good and what is bad. I found it is something that you cant put numbers on. The procedure in the flybetter books is great and I practice this when I can. Keeps you within sight and landing space of your chosen landing place. Better to come in to high and have to sideslip off some height than miss it "by that much". How does the Jab sideslip by the way???

Hi robinsm, I'm not trying to hijack Bigfella's thread on PFLs, but I have not had the need to sideslip a normal approach (but I do use it for crosswind landings), but coincidentally I did practice approach sideslipping yesterday. I set up purposely high on final for a (my) normal descent rate of 500 fpm, and then practiced a few sideslips and increased the rate to about 800 fpm. It did not appear as effective as the Gazelle which drops like a rock in a sideslip, but it seemed pretty effective. I have also done a few sideslips during PFLs in the training area when a bit high but more typically use flap instead. Eric

 

 

[Yenn]

The greatv thing about sideslips is the fact that when you cease to sideslip, you are well set up to continue flying, whereas with flaps if you get to low, you lose lift when you lift the flaps.

 

 

[Phil Perry]

If I was a current flying Mentor / Instructor here in the UK, OR in Australia, I would be tearing my hair out reading all of these posts. . . . . . Then. . . I would be impressing upon all students to study what I have suggested to them that they should study as "Homework" and FOR GOODNESS SAKE. . . . . . . . . . . STAY OFF ANY INTERNET FORUM WHICH IS FREQUENTED BY OTHER PILOTS.

 

Otherwise you will be presented with a VERY LARGE amount of varying opinions, however skilfully put, intended, and /or backed up by a godzillion decades of actual experience. . . on this and that aspect of flight training, ALL VERY WELL MEANING.

 

If someone is a low time student of the air. . . . . the best AND ONLY person to whom that student should pay any attention at all,. . . . . . .

 

IS HIS / HER Instructor.

 

Due to the fact that EVERYBODY is on the interweb nowadays, then the temptation for a student to have a look at what OTHER GUYS would do in a given excercise or situation must be immense.

 

Not being a current mentor, nor instructor, this would be the only suggestion I would make to flight student readers of these forums,. . . .DON'T.

 

When you have got your shiny new licence, then, by all means,. . . look for additional advice on this and that.

 

Unitil then, . . .got a query ? . . .phone your Mentor. That's what you are paying for.

 

End of Rant AND . . . . No offence whatsoever to anyone who offers advice which has been freely asked for. . . . . . . . . .

 

(edited by mod - blasphemes remark removed)

 

 

[motzartmerv]

you lose lift when you lift the flaps.

You dont have to:)

 

 

[facthunter]

Lose lift or raise the flaps Motz? You can drop if you don't raise the nose to compensate but you don't want to overdo that as your stall speed has risen and an inexperienced pilot might find a bit of overload doing that. It can be done of course but I wouldn't want to guarantee that I could do a convincing demonstration on every occasion, even. Nev

 

 

[motzartmerv]

You dont have to lose lift. Attitude changes with flap should be second nature, no different in a glide. (IMHO) Im not happy unless the pilot can lower or raise flap with little or no change in airspeed. Your right, there is a danger if your not good at it by coming back too much, but if its a natural input that con incides with the flap retraction then it shouldn't be too much of a problem. Sink when retracting flaps in a takeoff is easily overcome by raising the nose and maintaining the speed etc.. Its one of the things that can upset the approach if the pilot cant compensate for the lowering of the flap, instead of describing a nice constant angle to the runway, they get a balloon followed by speed loss and heavy sink, the numbers are stuffed up then and so is the angle. Where as compensating AS the flaps are coming out they can maintain an approach speed OR angle. If the attitude is maintained and no other changes are made then the flap will just effect the speed and angle ;)

 

 

[facthunter]

Trim and attitude and drag change with flap ...It is a small effect in some A/C and a very large one in some others. The Tecnam Echo loses speed rapidly with power off and the flap extended fully, requiring the nose to be lowered quite an amount and quickly. Cessna's don't use the full flap position of old any more, probably because of the difficulty of the trim change with power on the go-round. Reducing flap on a glide approach is a fairly unusual manoeuver and unless it is done early for the effect to be significant it is often pointless in a practical sense. You have botched it and are probably stuck with the result, at that stage. If you were aiming for 1/3rd down the strip till you are sure of getting in, it shouldn't happen. Nev

 

 

[motzartmerv]

True Nev. But an understanding of whats going on and how to overcome the further effects of flap/drag etc is crucial, particularly when flying aeroplanes that use takeoff flap and EFATO considerations.

 

 

[Guest Bigfella]

People are telling me I shouldn't be using the altimeter to practice forced landings, I think what should be being said is that you should not be using the altimeter in an actual forced landing. I'm practicing in a training area of a known height, and I'm using an instrument that is teaching me to refine my judgement of height and distance whilst practising a forced landing. I'm guessing that in time I will be able to make these judgements without the aid of the altimeter at which time I will be hopefully competent at forced landings. I'd have to add that the altimeter is helping me a great deal using high and low key heights to confirm to me I have set myself up properly for the selected field.

 

I guess its a bit like when I first started training I used fingers on the dash to confirm my attitude was correct, obviously from experience I dont need to do this anymore.

 

Enjoying the discussion.

 

Cheers,

 

Bigfella

 

 

[facthunter]

Responding to Motz...

 

Indeed and we are getting aircraft that do have a lot of flap available, whereas years ago there were few that had them. Another reason to have a reference to the handling characteristicsa of individual and "tricky" aircraft available for guidance "somewhere". Even so individual aircraft vary from build to build and with weight and balance considerations. You take it seriously and that is the right approach. andy (no pun). Nev

 

 

[Ultralights]

What technique do glider pilots use? i use that one... only 1 instrument required... airspeed.

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

What technique do glider pilots use? i use that one... only 1 instrument required... airspeed.

I'd agree if I was in a proper glider but a power plane with an engine failure can have a descent rate that significantly exceeds its indicated airspeed, all gliders' elevators are capable of bringing the mainplane to the stall. The same is not true for all powered planes, many don't have sufficient authority and can develop a high descent rate in a mush which doesn't pressurise the pitot sufficiently for it to show on the ASI

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Don't even really need that:)

 

thanx Nev, yes I take it pretty seriously. Ive noticed that Flaps are one of the more misunderstood controls on the aeroplane. Even by commercial Instructors. Helping out on Upgrades etc ive often seen them fall over when backed into a corner with flp knowledge.

 

Its no surprise then that a lot of pilots know when to use them, but don't truely understand what it is they are doing. And I reckon one of thr reasons is as youve touched on, that is they are all quite varied in type, size, effect, manipulation, trim change etc. Also, the effect is not linear. Small flap angles only increase drag slightly but increase the camber/AofA significantly, then as more flap is lowered the situation changes and varying degrees of lift/drag ratios are experienced. I think its a subject that is generally brushed over like stability but deserves more focus, especially for those likely to go on and fly more complex types.

 

I had an emergency just this weekend gone where it was only the flap that got us out of it (without wracking the plane anyway).

 

 

[Eric McCandless]

.....If someone is a low time student of the air. . . . . the best AND ONLY person to whom that student should pay any attention at all,. . . . . . . IS HIS / HER Instructor.

Hi Phil,

I totally agree. However, just because I have read something here does not mean I am going to go out and do it. I always listen and consult with my instructor. I think it is healthy though to get different points of view for discussion.

 

There are obviously different points off view out there but our instructors will know our particular idiosyncrasies which may warrant a different technique than an experienced pilot for instance. Our instructors may even use different techniques for each of their different students depending on competencies and what will work best for a particular student. e.g. my instructor has taught me to put 1st stage of flap at the end of downwind and 2nd stage at start of base. Why, because she told me "the concept is to have the aircraft completely set up on base so that on final there is nothing to do but maintain the same speed and descent rate". But I have read that other pilots put 1st stage on base and 2nd on final or maybe not use 2nd stage flap for a normal landing. But I religiously stick to what my instructor has taught me to do, and will continue until I am experienced enough to understand when it is safe or necessary to do things differently. Eric.

 

 

[facthunter]

No pilot in an active training situation with an instructor especially in the initial stages of training, should apply anything "extra" to what he/she has discussed with said instructor, to the way things are done. IF you think something might be a good idea DISCUSS it with him. Basic training is just that. Your instructor has to have some idea of what you are likely to do and he/she will be feeding information and explaining things progressively. Confusion you don't need.

 

Procedures ( sequence of actions), around a "standard" circuit give a flow. A circuit or part of, prior to landing gives a time to prepare the plane for landing and have it configured and stabilised at a certain safe point. You train to a standard circuit, but on the line you may rarely do one, but you always relate to it. In emergencies you might omit most of it, but when things are done out of normal sequence that is when things may go wrong. Ie gear left up. You still need an abreviated checklist. ( bare necessity checklist). Nev

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Hi Phil,I totally agree. However, just because I have read something here does not mean I am going to go out and do it. I always listen and consult with my instructor. I think it is healthy though to get different points of view for discussion.

There are obviously different points off view out there but our instructors will know our particular idiosyncrasies which may warrant a different technique than an experienced pilot for instance. Our instructors may even use different techniques for each of their different students depending on competencies and what will work best for a particular student. e.g. my instructor has taught me to put 1st stage of flap at the end of downwind and 2nd stage at start of base. Why, because she told me "the concept is to have the aircraft completely set up on base so that on final there is nothing to do but maintain the same speed and descent rate". But I have read that other pilots put 1st stage on base and 2nd on final or maybe not use 2nd stage flap for a normal landing. But I religiously stick to what my instructor has taught me to do, and will continue until I am experienced enough to understand when it is safe or necessary to do things differently. Eric.

Hi Eric, . . . .sorry about the ranting on, ( and NO, I hadn't been on the vin du plonk. . . I was still in the hangar, . . .which regrettably, we have had no time yet in which to install a corner bar. . . . )

 

I had recently had a discussion with my friend Gordon Faulkner, who was a trike instructor when God's dog was a pup, ( he has somewhere between 19 and 20 thousand hours on trikes, having been one of the first persons to fly a powered hang glider wing rig a significant way cross country in the UK ) and he said the worst thing that he ever had to deal with on an ongoing basis. . . was "Clubroom Input" to which his many students listened intently,. . . as any aspiring aviator would, no doubt. ( I were the same when I were a lad tha knows. . . but then. . .we didn't have tinternet )

 

The problem with this assorted scuttlebut, however well meaning and genuine, is that it can become difficult for an instructor to teach a student, in a planned and modular fashion, ie, excercise by excercise,. . . and steadily build their experience and knowledge in a structured manner,. . . if they are listening to wizened eagles like Bill, Fred or Joe at the bar saying things like, . . ." Well, what you need to do is this......" or that. . . . . or,. . ." Well I was always taught to do it this way. . . .". ?

 

I have ( fortunately ) only one glaring example of a student taking extraneous advice from the bar room, and this happened around 12 years ago, where a student deliberately stalled a weightshift ( trike) aircraft half way down final approach, as someone in the Club bar had told him that so long as there was no significant side wind, this was a much more effective way of losing unwanted height on final than doing the "S" turns which he had been taught. The guy ended up flattened on the runway after a 6G bellyflop, with a wrecked school owned aircraft and spinal trauma. At least he was honest about why he'd tried this. ( He was flying the "Alpha" version of my trike, which didn't have a sharp stall, ( nor the quick recovery either. . . ) He said that when he stalled it, it fell out of the sky ( no surprise there then. . .) and his brain went into "Dialling tone" mode, ( I love that phrase. . .) and he didn't know what to do, because Bill, Fred or Joe, hadn't mentioned what he should to do if it all went balls up. . .

 

I own ( amongst other things. . . ) a really OLD trike, called a Gemini Flash 2. ( built in 1986 and powered by a Rotax 503, single carb engine ) This aircraft has a very sharp, well defined stall charactersitic, which can be literally "Switched on and off" by very small forward and aft pitch adjustments on the control frame.

 

I learned of it's advanced abilities after I'd already completed over 350 hours on it,. . . ( done over a thousand in it now. . . ) but this was taught to me by a very advanced instructor. Since then, If my landing approaches turn out to be rubbish, I KNOW that If I'm a little too high on final, due to my mis-reading the wind velocity, or the air / ground radio guy is a plonker,. . . . . . . it doesn't matter, because I can recover the situation by mini-stalling it, and then land safely ANYWHERE I want on the available runway. But this is NOT the sort of thing that I would EVER want to pass on to a newbie student in the club bar !

 

In an Ideal world, I'd just like all you experts to be a bit careful with newbies. . . . . . ( ! ! ) ( you never know. . . . It might make all the instructors less crabby ! ! ! ! ! ! )

 

Phil

 

X X

 

 

[rankamateur]

it doesn't matter, because I can recover the situation by mini-stalling it, and then land safely ANYWHERE I want on the available runway. But this is NOT the sort of thing that I would EVER want to pass on to a newbie student in the club bar !

Well not after what happened to that last guy who tried it, I wouldn't want that to happen twice either.

 

 

[Phil Perry]

And I forgot to mention one of your other comments Eric. . . . .

 

You say that you would ONLY consult with your instructor if you were in any doubt about a particular excercise, well, this is laudable, but quite rare in my experience. But I DO applaud your attitude in this respect. I regret that it appears you are in a minority, ( not in OZ, cos I am not there, but here in the UK where I see and hear ( And read on FORUMS. . . .! ) these interesting anomalies on a regular basis. . . .

 

Mervyn has highlighted the use ( and misuse) of wing flaps, for those poor individuals who have not experienced the wonders of 2 axis trike flying and prefer the feel of a pole or yoke. . . ( ! ) We have guys at our field who never use the flaps on their aircraft, because,. . . well,. . . . I've heard quite a few strange stories such as,. . ." I don't like the pitch down effect I get,. . . it messes up my trim setting. . . ." one guy paid over £350.00 for a flap kit for his Rans S6, then never uesed them at all. . . . . . . ? and,. . . . ."why do I need flaps when I can sideslip. . . . ?" I've recently watched a thread on a UK forum where trike pilots are insisting that they can sideslip their aircraft to lose height ( ! ) the mind boggles .I suppose that these super nitrogarlic injected 912 Hot trikes can't be "Mini-Stalled" to lose height in their freeway speed landings. . . . . . . and they call this PROGRESS ? ( ! )

 

There seem to be many strange stories about how we all fly,. . . . . . . my Brother is addicted to motorcycle videos, . . . I'm addicted to reading "interesting" opinions on Forums. . . . ( hoping to learn something of course. . .)

 

Phil

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Well not after what happened to that last guy who tried it, I wouldn't want that to happen twice either.

No Rank,. . . . . . don't try this in a three axis aircraft. . . . .it might work,. . . but then again , . . . trikes don't drop a wing and spin,. . . . . . some three axis aircraft do. . . . . . . and very well too.

 

I'd love for you to be still breathing when I come out to OZ in Feb 2014. . . . . . . .

 

 

[facthunter]

Imagine your part-trained student comes in to land (solo) and it all goes pear shaped and after the dust settles you have a litle talk and it comes out that he thought it would be a good idea to do it the way someone on a forum /at the bar/ in a magazine( How to fly like an ACE in one hour) etc suggested>>>You (as the instructor) would be suitably NOT amused.

 

In the years I have been on this forum I have never entered into advising anybody how to judge flare height .

 

When I was doing circuits on the largest plane I ever flew the second circuit the instructor said was 'you are flaring low, but getting away with it , so keep going" everyone is different. ( I never like hanging a plane up in the air in the flare. Things can happen, and you are using up runway). Nev

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Lol Phil, we don't all like the feel of pole;). Do you fly aircraft aswel as trikes?