Head in the clouds Posted February 19, 2013 Posted February 19, 2013 ....Do you fly aircraft aswel as trikes? Helicopters are commonly used as crop sprayers. They are fitted with spray-booms similiar to what are fitted to aircraft .... trikes and helicopters aren't aircraft....
Eric McCandless Posted February 19, 2013 Posted February 19, 2013 , . . . I'm addicted to reading "interesting" opinions on Forums. . . . ( hoping to learn something of course. . .)Phil I'm addicted too. Is there a cure ? Although I am not after one at this stage. I can kick this any time I want. Eric. 1
Phil Perry Posted February 19, 2013 Posted February 19, 2013 Lol Phil, we don't all like the feel of pole;). Do you fly aircraft aswel as trikes? Hi Merv. . . . WHADDYER MEAN. . . do I fly AIRCRAFT as well !! I always thoght my trike was one of those ! ! ! ! Yes I have, a lot of the Cessnas and a lot of of the Pipers, and an assortment of other "Pole-Feel" thingies as well ! ( no hot air balloons yet. . . ) however, I've yet to master ANY of them ( ! ) Phil
Phil Perry Posted February 19, 2013 Posted February 19, 2013 Trim and attitude and drag change with flap ...It is a small effect in some A/C and a very large one in some others. The Tecnam Echo loses speed rapidly with power off and the flap extended fully, requiring the nose to be lowered quite an amount and quickly. Cessna's don't use the full flap position of old any more, probably because of the difficulty of the trim change with power on the go-round. Reducing flap on a glide approach is a fairly unusual manoeuver and unless it is done early for the effect to be significant it is often pointless in a practical sense. You have botched it and are probably stuck with the result, at that stage. If you were aiming for 1/3rd down the strip till you are sure of getting in, it shouldn't happen. Nev HI Nev,. . . . If I remember correctly, the old Cessna 40 degree flap setting was cited as the cause of a violent uncommanded "Pitch - Down" effect which was beleived at the time to be due to possible elevator airflow shielding, . . . rendering the pitch trim ineffective, I don't know if this was ever proven, but all the 150 / 152 / 172 types had the max flap deployment restricted to 30 degrees thereafter to preclude any litigation . . . . . I have to be honest, with many happy hours on 172s, I never experienced anything like that, and most instructors and other pilots I spoke to on the subject said that it was a load ob rubbish, and used as an excuse by one pilot in the states who got too slow on the approach. . . . . Shame really, . . you could land a 172 in a really impressive short distance using 40 flap ! ! ! ( "Interesting" in the Go-around though ! )
David Isaac Posted February 19, 2013 Posted February 19, 2013 Yep, I remember the case where some numbnut (in the US of course) sued Cessna because he crashed a C172 in an attempted go around with 40 degrees of flap hanging down ... obviously wasn't checked in a C172 competently. The POH clearly states to retract immediately to 20 on go around and hold the nose down to accelerate to TOSS. So as a result in the ridiculous American law system, the POH notes didn't save Cessna's insurers, so ... guess what ... we all pay the penalty of losing a great short field landing feature on a C172 and C152 so the max flap now is 30 degrees on production aircraft. Still plenty of old girls out there with the 40 degree capability,an old 150 is a beaut example of short field capability. I cut my teeth on the Cessna light range and never ever had an issue with 40 hanging out either on approach or go around, but then again I had an eminently competent instructor. There is now an STC for older C 172 models to reduce flap max to 30 and the only reason people do it is because it raises the MTOW by quite a few KG (cant remember exactly how many) but we all know a C172 has marginal performance at MTOW any way. The penalty is the landing flare and roll is longer and if you are 5 knots too fast you will use a lot of of runway. 1 1
Phil Perry Posted February 19, 2013 Posted February 19, 2013 Still plenty of old girls out there with the 40 degree capability,an old 150 is a beaut example of short field capability. I cut my teeth on the Cessna light range and never ever had an issue with 40 hanging out either on approach or go around, but then again I had an eminently competent instructor. Irather think that the instructor had an eminently competent student David. . . . . . . 1
Head in the clouds Posted February 19, 2013 Posted February 19, 2013 Still plenty of old girls out there with the 40 degree capability,an old 150 is a beaut example of short field capability. I cut my teeth on the Cessna light range and never ever had an issue with 40 hanging out either on approach or go around, but then again I had an eminently competent instructor. Agreed, My A model C172 had the 40 degree 'barn doors' and they were terrific, and no problem to go around and climb with if you wanted to, with care of course. You could also fly so slow that the ASI read zero and with the stall horn blaring but careful use of rudder rather than aileron kept her flying happily enough. And you could do big slips with them fully deployed too. The placard said to avoid slips, rather than that they were not permitted, I enquired for the reason, it was only to reduce flap track wear. Got sick of the constant advice from everyone though, everywhere you went, "oooh don't ever use the last stage of flap etc...."
facthunter Posted February 19, 2013 Posted February 19, 2013 Flap might reduce your ground run and is a good soft field technique, but it is little use on climb. The extra lift you gain comes at a high drag price. Technically you might get a slightly steeper climb angle, which some would see as a way of demonstrating the characteristics of a STOL plane, but with a risk if there is a power failure or you encounter gusts.or have to manoeuver.. The aileron appears to be about equal up to down . Conventionally they tend to be more up than down.Nev 1
Phil Perry Posted February 19, 2013 Posted February 19, 2013 I'm PROUD of you Alan,. . . . . this is the guy who said that my Flash 2 wasn't an aircraft ! ! ! ! I'm glad you had some proper flying AL, before defecting to the DARK SIDE. . . . . . . . And I'm surprised you listened to wimps in the bar about full flap too . . . . Wonderful feature was that. . . . . . I'm looking around for one of them turbine things they flew in the Air America movie, they had 60 deg. flap ( Luxury ! ! ! ! ) What were they ?? Pilatus , ? Helio ,. . . dunno, ( I've no doubt some smartyalec will post a picture and full spec tomorrow ) Phil 1
David Isaac Posted February 19, 2013 Posted February 19, 2013 Pilatus Porter ... Ohh I want one ... LOL 1
facthunter Posted February 20, 2013 Posted February 20, 2013 You could carry one nights supply of shiraz Nev
Phil Perry Posted February 20, 2013 Posted February 20, 2013 Pilatus Porter ... Ohh I want one ... LOL Yes David, you're right, cos I just looked it up in WIKI, and if it's in there it MUST be right ( ! ) Yeah,. . . . I'd Love one as well, but I dunno if I could afford the Maint in the UK, . . . .I don't know any tame jet engine mechs. . . . . . Mind you,. . . . I don't fancy playing hide and seek by flying one ( or anything ese ) into the fuse of another crashed appliance to play hide and seek. . . . . Whether one of those would carry sufficient Shiraz to accommodate my needs for a couple of days Neville. . . . . . , well, I dunno,. . . . . I got an 'A' level in applied maths, and passed atpl,. . and applied aerodynamics,. . . . and a flight engineer ticket,. . . .and the UK car licence theory test,. BUT . . . . . but I never weighed a bottle before. . . . . does red weigh more than white. . . . . . . so may unanswered questions. . . . . All this study and can I fly a perfect circuit ? Not usually. . . . . . . ( so I'm told )
Phil Perry Posted February 20, 2013 Posted February 20, 2013 Flap might reduce your ground run and is a good soft field technique, but it is little use on climb. The extra lift you gain comes at a high drag price. Technically you might get a slightly steeper climb angle, which some would see as a way of demonstrating the characteristics of a STOL plane, but with a risk if there is a power failure or you encounter gusts.or have to manoeuver.. The aileron appears to be about equal up to down . Conventionally they tend to be more up than down.Nev I agree with the cut 'N' thrust of your argument there Nev,. . . . but I have used "Sudden" application of flap on many occasions, to circumvent running into a fence, on a badly executed take off for instance, but this of course doesn't work well with the Cessna's electrically operated fowler flaps, only with PA28 types, where it is possible to yank on as much as you need instantly to get over that fence ! ! ! ( Like my take off from Lilydale in the cherokee six that once. . . . . ! ! ! ! The fowlers are too slow to respond in a situation like that, but this is an Extreme use of flaps I would agree, and it's better not to get yourself into that situation in the bloody first place, but. . . . It sometimes happens. . . . . and it's nice to know it's there. . . . . . Phil
dazza 38 Posted February 20, 2013 Posted February 20, 2013 From memory I believe Mark Hanna (RIP) , landed the Pilatus Porter onto the side of the mountain, in that part of the movie.
facthunter Posted February 20, 2013 Posted February 20, 2013 Phil, The shiraz coment was directed to Mr Isaacs. The Porter was used in PNG . Big lift weight, big volume. A workhorse. Nev
David Isaac Posted February 20, 2013 Posted February 20, 2013 Phil, Nev know my tastes well. The Porter could lift more Shiraz than I could drink in a night ... er perhaps even in a week ... LOL 1
facthunter Posted February 21, 2013 Posted February 21, 2013 They ONLY carry about a tonne david. Nev
David Isaac Posted February 21, 2013 Posted February 21, 2013 What are you saying Nev ... that I am a closet wino ... LOL. Hmmm one tonne of Shiraz ... that would take a long time to drink.
facthunter Posted February 21, 2013 Posted February 21, 2013 Not by yourself. You get lots of friends at natfly that way. Nev
David Isaac Posted February 21, 2013 Posted February 21, 2013 Yeh, wouldn't that be a hoot arrive at Natfly in the Porter and reverse it into Camp David and unload the Shiraz ... plenty of friends to unload for sure. LOL
lark Posted February 21, 2013 Posted February 21, 2013 yeah, the 40deg flap was great for approaches over obstacles as well as short field stuff.
Gnarly Gnu Posted February 21, 2013 Posted February 21, 2013 Pilatus Porter ... Ohh I want one ... LOL Fer goodness sake, you starting this..... period stuttering stuff too?
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