9th Feb Meeting feedback

[cooperplace]

any news about what happened at the meeting?

 

 

[rankamateur]

any news about what heppened at the meeting?

Excellent Question - Where is the new thread?

 

 

[Gentreau]

Do you think it's finished already ? It's only 7pm !

 

 

[Gibbo]

Spin, Spin, Spin.

 

Interesting that the proxies were not taken into account in the three motions that passed. Chances are that the meeting could be declared null anyway as the proxies etc were not sent out on time and also the letter sent with the proxy forms (postmarked 30/1) would cause a few issues.

 

Couple of points that I raised -

 

6 monthly finiance was tabled. 1.7mil in cash holdings = $9700 in interest.. effectivily 1.06% on yearly basis.. Raised the question to Eugene 'Thats the best the girls told me that we could get", ING would pay over 5% or $87k per year. Eugene admitted 'quietly' that yes it would wipe the loss of $34k in first six months and create a surplus if invested correctly.

 

Also raised the issue of the safety notice on the first audit and what was done to fix it. Grounded aircraft etc was the result.

 

Nothing really came of it but I'm sure a couple of others present will give their side.

 

The SR president status may be a case of 'watch this space' if someone decides to challenge it in court. - unresolved but Caz has a recording of the meeting and several others also recorded it.

 

800k of driving for no real result other than we will do better from the board.

 

 

[cooperplace]

Do you think it's finished already ? It's only 7pm !

my thought exactly!

 

 

[kaz3g]

The Executive appeared to have a bit of a bunker mentality and came to the meeting with their lawyer who remained for the whole day. They also had a cabal of followers present on the day.

 

SR continued to claim that he had legal advice that his reinstatement by the Board was legal and that he was therefore the legitimate President. He also claimed that the Board had ratified his position. My recollection is that several Board members had not been asked to consider the question. No copy of that advice was tendered to the meeting. He chaired the meeting and the lawyer basically said if we disagree it could be tested in court.

 

I raised the issue of an apprehension of bias and supported an independent chair. Runciman continued to insist he was chair and we moved on rather than getting bogged down. The membership is up for the legal costs, plus the mail out which must add up to more than $15k in total

 

SR and Middo blamed previous tech Mngrs and others for the registration issues and held themselves out as hard working reps who had been caught out. Some present accepted this and supported them, others questioned them at length and were obviously not satisfied.

 

Eugene was questioned closely regarding the multiple failures to comply with legislation and Constitution. His lack of understanding of his portfolio and legal obligations was very apparent in my view.

 

There were a number of times where various Board members made it clear that they had not been informed about issues and felt that this was deliberate. In think everyone on the Board now has a better understanding of their fiduciary duties, including to one another. John McK, Jim T, Rod B seemed particularly affected by the communication bottleneck.

 

SR insisted he did not instruct the office staff to tell members that registrations were held up by a commuter glitch. I think many present were sceptical of this and a number of other answers given to questions.

 

Motions were moved and carried instructing the Board to seek external advice regarding governance and management issues, particularly the respective roles and responsibilities of Board and GM, and their desirable structures. The need for the organisation to have a management team approach to its work headed by the GM, much improved communication and a Board that focuses on big picture stuff.

 

Various speakers raised the importance of the Board mAking use of the expertise available within the membership. Peter Gilmour moved that a Skills Register be immediately introduced to start this off.

 

Communication, or the lack of it, was raised again and again. The point was made this is much more than just having a website update anddd that there should be regular newsletters and other feedback from the Board and the staff.

 

The Board all said they had learned from the experience and we have to hope that is indeed the case. They have Until September at best to demonstrate it.

 

One great disappointment to me was s statement made by Middo that the office staff had copped some pretty bad abuse from some callers over the last few months. I spoke to Sue and expressed revulsion that this had happened after she confirmed it had happened on more than one occasion. The staff have been under huge pressure through all this and none of them deserves that sort of treatment no matter how much the issues hurt us.

 

No doubt others will record their own memories of the proceedings in due course.

 

Kaz

 

 

[Gentreau]

So the treasurer demonstrates that he doesn't understand his job, the president is suspected of speaking untruths and does not produce the legal advice to support his position and yet not a single motion of no confidence ??

 

What do you feel the meeting actually achieved ?

 

.

 

 

[Gibbo]

I don't understand the abuse. I have nothing but praise for the staff. They can only do much, it's the board that set the policies.

 

They get enough crap from the board!

 

Some procedures and clearly defined policies would make their life much easier.

 

 

[Gibbo]

Not a single motion of no confidence ??.

Big no. It was pretty clear who was and wasn't up to the task. The minutes will show.

 

 

[Gentreau]

Big no. It was pretty clear who was and wasn't up to the task. The minutes will show.

I'm amazed. If certain are clearly not up to the task and members went there with the power to remove them, I wonder why they are all still in post ?

 

 

[dodo]

My unreliable recollections...it ran for eight hours

 

Opening and chair dispute: Started with some bickering about whether the pres could be an impartial chair,then whether the pres was even the pres.

 

Result: Pres claimed legal advice, refused to provide it, and basically said he was pres until challenged in court,and refused to discuss further. Matter of impartiality was dealt with by the constitution which says the pres chairs, or if not present , member of the exec. At least that was clear.

 

Discussion of legal matter, which was not very satisfactory for a number of reasons (legal sense, in that discussion damages our position, also some poorly aimed questions, also some petulance, and a general reticence by the pres to answer anything). Unfortunately,we got little information about insurance, beyond RA's lawyer pointing out the legal matter wasn't a problem as we were insured,but then it became apparent the insurance cover is or may be close to exhaustion. Bit frustrating

 

Discussion of junior membership issue, somewhat better, but still not very informative.

 

At this point, the meeting took a break, which improved it.

 

Discussion of CASA audit issue. Pres explained his perspective, until after about 30 minutes an interjecter loudly and rudely pointed out the pres was the chair, and should behave like one,and anyway should have stopped himself 20 mins earlier, and he hadn't said anything informative. Despite this interjection being not in the spirit of holding a meeting, the interjecter was clearly right and the pres retreated.

 

After that the discussion improved somewhat. However, it often felt like we were talking to the gatekeeper - the pres answered most questions, ran the process as well as participating, but when we occasionally got past this, some good comments by some of the board, particularly Paul Middleton (secretary) on the audit outcomes. We did get a fair bit of useful discussion and information, especially on some issues like the LSAs.

 

OPINIONATED BIT (bias warning). In my opinion, the message from the executive (Paul M and Steve R were the only ones responding) blamed the past tech manager, and beyond that appeared to think it was an unavoidable event, sort of an Act of God. I felt they were in denial over the state of RA administration. END OPINIONATED BIT

 

Result - nil (not very satisfactory, but somewhat informative). Temperature lowered a bit

 

Lunch

 

After lunch, the temperature had dropped a bit, as I think the board finally realised most members were there to find out what was going on, rather than being a mob of peasants with pitchforks and torches.

 

Discussion of financials,where Eugene Reid got kicked about a bit, but that was pretty much inevitable (6 monthly financials not available, and the budget which David Caban got castigated on in the past was still not published). Can’t have been nice for Eugene, but he has the responsibility of being Treasurer. I respect him for his dignity, although I am sure he is the wrong bloke for Treasurer.

 

One moment of Lightness occurred when Howie got up and defended the boards efforts, pointing out a good job in difficult circumstances,and pointed to the surplus of $34000. Unfortunately, the number was in brackets, and therefore a deficit of $34000. I still think Howie had a point, and his one word "oops!" comment managed to be both apologetic over the incorrect bit, and quite genuine about his good opinion of the board's efforts.

 

After that, not a lot, but it still took until after 5pm. Discussion of various concerns - communication, technology, financials, compliance, future directions.

 

Ultimate result:

 

Two motions passed (review RA structure, and board to report at Natfly on regulatory compliance)

 

I think the board realised that the membership isn't a mad mob of peasants with pitchforks and torches, but is still in denial over some or many of the problems.

 

I think the member ship got a better understanding of the board issues.

 

Several of the board (Michael Apps in particular, but others as well) presented some good perspectives and opinions.

 

Too often, the response of the president was "we made mistakes, we will take that on board, we won't get it wrong again"

 

The pres came over a bit poorly, running the meeting and participating in it, with an emphasis on control, had to be reminded of meeting motion process (!), and then referring to the board as they and the executive as we, which grated with me.

 

With luck, this is a start. If I am wrong, nothing has changed.

 

dodo

 

 

[Gibbo]

My unreliable recollections...it ran for eight hoursOne moment of Lightness occurred when Howie got up and defended the boards efforts, pointing out a good job in difficult circumstances,and pointed to the surplus of $34000. Unfortunately, the number was in brackets, and therefore a deficit of $34000. I still think Howie had a point, and his one word "oops!" comment managed to be both apologetic over the incorrect bit, and quite genuine about his good opinion of the board's efforts.

 

dodo

Considering (based on the $ figures) we now have a membership equal to around 3300 pilots for the six months a deficit of ONLY $34k isn't a bad effort but $40k or of money was wasted on a bad (or non existant) investments is an issue that needs to be addressed. Taking inflation into account we actually lost 1.5% of the cash value ($25,500) in real terms and this will not show up on the books.

 

based on six monthy figures - $616k / $183 per pilot equals 3366 full pilots for the half year. hmmm around 6700 for the full year. What's happened to the other 3000 members?

 

 

[dodo]

Considering (based on the $ figures) we now have a membership equal to around 3300 pilots for the six months a deficit of ONLY $34k isn't a bad effort but $40k or of money was wasted on a bad (or non existant) investments is an issue that needs to be addressed. Taking inflation into account we actually lost 1.5% of the cash value ($25,500) in real terms and this will not show up on the books.based on six monthy figures - $616k / $183 per pilot equals 3366 full pilots for the half year. hmmm around 6700 for the full year. What's happened to the other 3000 members?

Your pickup on that was informative, especially for the Treasurer's response. I still feel we should be embarrassed by his response.

 

dodo

 

 

[FlyingVizsla]

Couple of points that I raised -

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

6 monthly finance was tabled. 1.7mil in cash holdings = $9700 in interest.. effectively 1.06% on yearly basis.. Raised the question to Eugene "That's the best the girls told me that we could get", ING would pay over 5% or $87k per year. Eugene admitted 'quietly' that yes it would wipe the loss of $34k in first six months and create a surplus if invested correctly.

 

 

 

According to the 2011 Annual Report the money was invested in Fixed Interest $966k and Floating Interest $520k with a combined effective weighted average interest rate of 4.4% for their $1.485 Million. (Note 17). The same information was not disclosed in 2012, however the interest on $1.78Mil was $81,774 (roughly 4.59%), Bank charges were $20,283.

 

 

 

So why are we getting 1%? I can only assume that the Fixed Interest accounts (about $1mil) have interest paid on maturity or 6 monthly and has not been taken into account? Given that the Association doesn't seem to need the money (it is just building year by year), perhaps it is time to consider better investments.

 

 

 

Sue

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Will post my perspective tomorrow after i get home. 20 words or less.. We got some motions up and we sure heard lots of words. However the education process is complete. There will now be firm fixed motions put on notice for natfly that relate to actions promised between now and Natfly.

 

Andy

 

P.s registration backlog is circa 100. 20ish of those are just requiring action by RAAus staff. 40ish waiting on owners to provide required documentation and 40ish are problems where today they are grounded and RAAus dont know how or if these will be registered in the future and are i think all LSA. These aircraft are all i think less than 5yrs old so theres quite a bit of angst for us in the short term future unless a way can be found to get these flying again and doing what the owners intended...... Bottom line is if you were to consider buying an LSA aircraft be very, very careful!

 

 

[Gibbo]

My wife just made a statement that sums today up..

 

"Children accepting responsabilty is a major developmental milestone. It's amazing how many adults missed that step."

 

 

[Gibbo]

According to the 2011 Annual Report the money was invested in Fixed Interest $966k and Floating Interest $520k with a combined effective weighted average interest rate of 4.4% for their $1.485 Million. (Note 17). The same information was not disclosed in 2012, however the interest on $1.78Mil was $81,774 (roughly 4.59%), Bank charges were $20,283.

So why are we getting 1%? I can only assume that the Fixed Interest accounts (about $1mil) have interest paid on maturity or 6 monthly and has not been taken into account? Given that the Association doesn't seem to need the money (it is just building year by year), perhaps it is time to consider better investments.

 

Sue

Its just plain scary that the treasurer does not know what investment strategy is used or any of the details of a $1.7mil pile of cash. If the above was the case then a simple answer and not passing the buck would have resolved the issue. Forward cash estimates would need to take into account the interest earned??

 

Bank charges I suspect would mostly be VISA/Mastercard fees. usually about 1.75% but deals with banks can be arranged for large'ish' customers.

 

 

[slartibartfast]

My second favourite moment (1st was Howie's Howler) was just after Eugene had tabled the single page financial report(?) and there was still a copy displayed on 2 large screens. Someone asked him how much revenue we got from aircraft registrations last year. He did his "deer in a headlight" look we've come to know, then said "I don't have that information with me".

 

Everyone in the room pointed to it on the screen.

 

Priceless.

 

The figures up on the screen are likely to be as close as we get to a projected budget. It was projected on the screen.

 

I think it was another positive step in the road to getting the organisation right. The board now know we aren't simply baying for blood, but we want to work together to make it better.

 

They now profess to be ready to accept that help.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Sounds like Dad's Army survived the invasion scare.

 

 

[coljones]

I don't understand the abuse. I have nothing but praise for the staff. They can only do much, it's the board that set the policies.They get enough crap from the board!

 

Some procedures and clearly defined policies would make their life much easier.

And interestingly (and disturbingly), SR rejected the claim that he or the board instructed the staff to lie about "the computer glitch" but didn't defend the staff - so either the staff are lying, the people making the claims about the story are lying or SR is lying. The least he could have done was defend the office staff, the meat in this sandwich.

 

 

[coljones]

Will post my perspective tomorrow after i get home. 20 words or less.. We got some motions up and we sure heard lots of words. However the education process is complete. There will now be firm fixed motions put on notice for natfly that relate to actions promised between now and Natfly.Andy

 

P.s registration backlog is circa 100. 20ish of those are just requiring action by RAAus staff. 40ish waiting on owners to provide required documentation and 40ish are problems where today they are grounded and RAAus dont know how or if these will be registered in the future and are i think all LSA. These aircraft are all i think less than 5yrs old so theres quite a bit of angst for us in the short term future unless a way can be found to get these flying again and doing what the owners intended...... Bottom line is if you were to consider buying an LSA aircraft be very, very careful!

Or more the point ensure that all the CASA paperwork is in place before you part with your readies. We were informed that there are a number of IBIS planes, from Columbia, that have not been certificated in a way that RAA is legally able to accept them but were registered by RAA. They have been grounded. This will lead to a conundrum between the owners, the importers and RAA

 

 

[DGL Fox]

We were informed that there are a number of IBIS planes, from Columbia

 

40ish are problems where today they are grounded and RAAus dont know how or if these will be registered in the future and are i think all LSA

So are the 40ish all of this type I am wondering? if not any idea of what the others are?

 

David

 

P.S Looking at some of these posts I am glad I didn't spend the time and money driving down to Canberra from Brisbane, doesn't sound like a lot was achieved.

 

 

[DWF]

How many members were at the meeting?

 

What (if anything) happens next?

 

What motions are to be put at the Natfly GM?

 

DWF

 

 

[Rocketing]

There were 168 members present.

 

Another motion that was passed not mentioned above was to accept the explanation for the "Junior Members" and that the "legal matter" have been communicated clearly and that it has been addressed accordingly and that we don't have to continue asking about it.

 

I feel the meeting ended with an attitude of lets try and work together and that some of the previous posts here doesn't really reflect the true 'feeling' that was present at the meeting at the end. I suppose it is just the nature of communicating in writing compared to have been there.

 

 

[rankamateur]

Interesting that the proxies were not taken into account in the three motions that passed.

Were our proxies a total waste of time then, if they were not counted when the motions were passed? How is this democracy?