Safe or Not ?

[P4D]

Do you reallly really need to fly that much?

 

 

[nong]

Well Rolf, what can I say. There's certainly no shortage of 'chicken little' advice on this thread. Frankly, this type of aircraft can be flown safely with no gauges at all. We called it ultralighting. The wing tanks are a non-issue.

 

Why not ask to examine the aircraft's Maintenance Log Book....you have a legitimate right. No Log....No Fly!

 

I would expect any instructor to be excited and impressed by a student making such a request. In the log, you should see is a steady listing of things being fixed, adjusted and replaced, as well as servicing at regular intervals. You will see where and when the aircraft was manufactured and how much flying time it has done.

 

What about setting some time aside to really look at the aircraft. Trust yourself. Look for corrosion. Look for dings in any of the round tube structural elements. Look at every bolt and fitting. Is the air filter grungy and falling apart? Are the carby rubber adapters cracked? Are the wing and tail skins faded and threadbare? Trust yourself.

 

If the first two digits of the rego are 25 or 55, it's a factory built aircraft and OK for training/hire.

 

Cheers

 

 

[Guest sunfish]

You have missed an important question - when was this aircraft last flown? What is its recent history? If its just been dusted off and hasn't flown for a considerable period then in my opinion it needs to have its fuel system checked for gum and suchlike. Cooling system likewise. If its been doing Three or Four hours per week its probably fine, but its up to you to make sure its airworthy.

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

I understood from comments that Cooda made recently that the club(s) at Emkaytee lost two Jabs recently (through no pilot fault) and so they didn't have a plane to rent. I'm just guessing that this Drifter is a recent acquisition to get hirers and the school back in the air?

 

If that's the case why not just wait a while and give the more experienced folk up there time to get it up to scratch. I know some of the folks up there and they're just as careful with their own fragile skins as the rest of us are elsewhere in the country, perhaps more so because there are more tigers up there.

 

That said, in thousands of hours I've only flown planes on rare occasions that have EGTs (my C172 didn't even have one) and the only use I've ever found for them is for efficient leaning at altitude and the Rotax doesn't have a mixture control.

 

My Drifter had two fuel tanks (rear and belly) but only the rear one had any form of 'gauge' and that was the clear strip of fibreglass on the side of it and the only way I could see that in flight was to loosen off my belts are far as they would go and climb onto the seat and hang out as far as... well you get my drift and I don't recommend it, especially in turbulence!

 

If you're at Emkaytee you could contact Cooda through this site and see what his opinion of it is and he tells me Kath Meyering still runs the place, it's a long while since I saw her but she was always very mindful of what was OK and what wasn't. Also there used to be a gentleman called Ron (I can't recall his surname at the moment but he has/had a Longeze that he built) and he is one of the strictest people I know where safety is concerned, he's an examiner in RAA and GA, if he reckons it's OK then it is...

 

So I'd say let the more experienced put it through the wringer first and only fly it when you're comfortable that it's fit and healthy, and if you don't feel right about it best to stay away...

 

Hope it helps.

 

 

[Rolf]

Head in the cloauds

 

Good guess, that I am located at MKT

 

Anyway I think I have to clearify a couple more things

 

Yes the drifter has been checked by qualified mechanics before it was reregistered by the club.

 

2nd, the two crashes of the Jabiru's were not aircraft related and both pilot's were on solo. So I am not sure how to conclude who's error it was.

 

For myself even being a newcomer. Flying solo, I am PIC and if I crash without aircraft mailfunction I would know who to blame !

 

Appart from that thanks for putting things back into perspective. My original question was really more about the importance of the EGT's as I am not farmiliar with the 2 Stroke's yet.

 

Thanks for everyones comments.

 

 

[M61A1]

Appart from that thanks for putting things back into perspective. My original question was really more about the importance of the EGT's as I am not farmiliar with the 2 Stroke's yet.

.

The EGT's should be able to be fixed quite cheaply if they are of concern. They are not particularly accurate, but if monitored, will by means of a needle split or spike, let you know something has gone awry. I would think they are quite important on a new engine when they are tight, and temps really do need to be monitored, but less important, on a "loose" older engine.As was said earlier, have a good look over the whole aircraft. If something is a bit "sus", ask yourself, "what's the worst outcome should this bit fail?", ie: you can glide without an engine, but if skins or fly wires fail, it goes bad.

 

 

[horsefeathers]

I have found that the EGT gauges on my 582 grey top engine don't tend to move around very much, EXCEPT when doing a longish low powered descent, when they can move up quite quickly. I gather this is due to the partial throttle and prop windmilling on descent, causing a fairly lean mix. Last thing you'd want to do is give the engine a big fist full of throttle after a long descent with very high EGT readings - tends to lead to seizures.

 

Monitor the EGT on descent closely. I was taught to do a powered descent with a 2 stroke, to help keep EGTs low - don't just pull the throttle all the way back.

 

I would consider them a necessity in a 2 stroke for that situation.

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

I have found that the EGT gauges on my 582 grey top engine don't tend to move around very much, EXCEPT when doing a longish low powered descent, when they can move up quite quickly. I gather this is due to the partial throttle and prop windmilling on descent, causing a fairly lean mix. Last thing you'd want to do is give the engine a big fist full of throttle after a long descent with very high EGT readings - tends to lead to seizures.Monitor the EGT on descent closely. I was taught to do a powered descent with a 2 stroke, to help keep EGTs low - don't just pull the throttle all the way back.

I would consider them a necessity in a 2 stroke for that situation.

Sometimes I wonder if too much information...

 

I instructed with my Drifter for years and went through two engine rebuilds (worn out and 1 broken crank, never a seizure) and never tried to treat the engine kindly. Always did long idle descents with a blip or two to keep the plugs from fouling and never had a problem. Also used to go from long idle descents in landing practice to immediate full power for go-arounds or touch and gos, time after time, day after day, never had a problem with overheating/seizing. The only overheating we used to be careful about could be caused by not using full throttle during climb. The needle is shaped to rapidly lean the mixture as throttle is reduced from full and so climbing in that condition (almost full throttle) could cause seizures (high manifold pressure but slightly reduced throttle under load).

 

 

[facthunter]

HITC is right about the "just below full power" high temp bit. Extra fuel cools the engine. Very rich on max power keeps it safer at higth power. Long descents on idle, the engine gets hardly any oil unless it is oil injected. Engines shouldn't seize unless they overheat due to broken belt or loss of coolant, if the piston clearances are correct.. The usual result of a lean mixture is the top of the piston may melt/burn and you get a hole in it, but it can cause detonation and piston ring breakage. Rings can break because of a build up of carbon in the ring groove underneath the ring forcing it too hard against the cylinder wall and into the exhaust port as well. Nev

 

 

[Yenn]

The EGT can tell what the mixture is like and it doesn't usually vary too much. The CHT is critical for preventing seizures or blown pistons. Detonation will show up on the CHT by being too high, but the EGT maybe only slightly higher. The CHT is an immediate condition check of the head, whereas the EGT will show the state of combustion, It will show if one carby is different from the other or even if timing is off spec.

 

 

[Rolf]

Will do my homework now and read the operations manual of the drifter,which I probably should have done before flying it (with my instructoer of course:)).

 

I think the EGT question is exhausetd. Thanks guys for all the good replies and have a nice weekend.

 

Rolf

 

 

[Tomo]

Jump in an old Cessna or Piper and you'll find most things on the dash don't work....

 

 

[Ballpoint 246niner]

I would suggest that you and your instructor are illegal. The plane should be 24 registered and airworthy and serviced as required or a 19 that you part or fully own. This will show up in your log book, ( a legal document) and the information sent to RAAus for your certificate changes. OOPS... Nev

Nev is spot on in his reply... Take note and don't let your enthusiasm to fly be your undoing......

 

 

[Rolf]

D'nt know if anyone is still following the threat

 

But just going through all the aqnswers again.

 

The bandwitdh goes from illegal flying to not to worry half of the instruments in an old cessna don't work either.

 

I know it's probably not black and white, but it can't possibly that grey either. Confused:scratching head:

 

Cheers Rolf

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Don't take any risks you aren't comfortable with.

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

If you're still a student you need to trust your instructor or find a new one if you doubt his abilities.

 

Are other experienced people flying this aircraft? If so, do you respect their judgement?

 

The examiner whose name I couldn't recall is Ron Lawford. I'll vouch for his opinion anytime.

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

OK I just re-read that you have a new certificate but still training for LP & TW. I still offer the same advice though.

 

You could perhaps just fly around over the top of MKT for a while, get to know the Drifter and practice a hundred or so forced landings? That's what I'd be doing if I was back in the Top End, green and in a new type.

 

 

[Ballpoint 246niner]

D'nt know if anyone is still following the threatBut just going through all the aqnswers again.

 

The bandwitdh goes from illegal flying to not to worry half of the instruments in an old cessna don't work either.

 

I know it's probably not black and white, but it can't possibly that grey either. Confused:scratching head:

 

Cheers Rolf

Rolf, I've just re read and concur. Ill try to summarise and be concise, and just to establish cred I've bee around two stroke aircraft, owned 3 and tuned and raced many bikes as well.

EGT measures how hot the burn is at the exhaust.

 

Measurement is an important way to monitor if the fuel/ air mixture is acceptable in flight.

 

2 strokes can suffer badly, even catastrophically if too hot/ lean/ or without sufficient lubrication, far more so than 4 strokes.

 

A training aircraft must meet all legal requirements for commercial operation and if you are in doubt you should definitely investigate this before flying the aircraft in question.

 

 

[planet47]

If you are still unsure - take a piece of paper and write down the fors and againsts for using this drifter. Look at each one carefully. While I think drifters are a hoot to fly it is not good to wish you were down here when you are up there. I love flying my quicksilver (2 stroke with a 447 rotax and an ambiguous name because there is nothing quick about them) and there aren't a hell of a lot of options around here when it comes to landing in an emergency either. Anything that looks a possibility is dotted with cattle, electricity lines, trees, housing and headstones and I have no plans on landing in water. I am unsure from this thread what you have flown and how much experience you have. I do understand that you are contemplating doing this with an instructor and perhaps you need to have a good chat with the instructor and verbalise your questions and thoughts.

 

 

[storchy neil]

what in the hell are gauges hooked to the engine for weight if that gauge doese not work dont bloody well fligh it neil

 

 

[Guest nunans]

am not quite sure if I should trust it.

-No Fuel gauge for main tank,

 

-Wing tanks out of service

 

-Exhaust temp gauges not working

 

Can some Rotex 2 stroke gurus shed some light for me

Hi,

 

I fly a two stroke Rotax and think they are a great engine.

 

The three points you listed above are ALL suggesting you are concerned that the engine in the aircraft may quit suddenly and leave you needing to fly a forced landing.

 

As far as I understand ALL non certified rotax air engines(ie. all two strokes + 912ul, 912uls, 912is, and 914ul) are sold with this warning;

 

"This engine, by its design, is subject to sudden stoppage. Engine stoppage can result in crash landings, forced landings or no power landings. Such crash landings can lead to serious bodily injury or death...This is not a certificated aircraft engine. It has not received any safety or durability testing, and conforms to no aircraft standards. It is for use in experimental, uncertificated aircraft and vehicles only in which an engine failure will not compromise safety. User assumes all risk of use, and acknowledges by his use that he knows this engine is subject to sudden stoppage...Never fly the aircraft equipped with this engine at locations, airspeeds, altitudes, or other circumstances from which a successful no-power landing cannot be made, after sudden engine stoppage. Aircraft equipped with this engine must only fly in DAYLIGHT VFR conditions."

 

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So the fuel guage, wing tanks and exhaust guages not working doesn't change anything really. That engine just like any other,(even the certified ones) can stop at any time.

 

 

 

So my advice to a fellow two stroke ultralighter is this, Keep an extra few knots up your sleeve on climb out, get used to flying safe glide approaches from a tight circuit rather than going wide/long and towing it in with the nose up going slow, and keep an eye out down below for a place to land all the time. (you should be enjoying the glorious view of the ground below you in a drifter anyway, that's what they're for) and be thankfull that if the engine does fail you can land faily short and with little remaining energy in that aircraft compared to a slippery plastic fantastic.

 

 

 

However, If the airframe/controls etc are suspect in anyway then this is a different story and would be a much bigger concern to me if I were considering flying it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[winsor68]

Can anyone answer what is or is not an Airworthy Drifter... not one you would fly... rather one that if Ra-Aus or CASA were to be waiting for you when you shut down and went over the aircraft would not cause you or them any concern???

 

Seems to be a lot of different opinions here...

 

 

[M61A1]

Can anyone answer what is or is not an Airworthy Drifter... not one you would fly... rather one that if Ra-Aus or CASA were to be waiting for you when you shut down and went over the aircraft would not cause you or them any concern???Seems to be a lot of different opinions here...

It's a hard question to answer ( for myself).......in the civvy world I've never seen document listing what are acceptable minor unserviceabilities (CFU's or carried forward unserviceability in the military) for a Drifter. I have seen CFU's for certain fuel tanks not to be used and some instrumentation ones, if not a mission requirement, that said, engine management instrumentation has always been a "no go" item.

 

 

[nong]

OK....so you have EGT needles to fixate on. Is that somehow good?

 

Two-stroke motorcycles don't have them because the rider needs to concentrate on where he is going.

 

Two-stroke aeroplanes also need a pilot who concentrates on where he is going.

 

 

[storchy neil]

un till raaus at the top get their act to gether and put to gether rules that apply to all aircraft i asume that the air craft is 24 reg and used for hire and reward there for it has to be as the factory designed it

 

on saying that when my aircraft was repaired and given a maintance release with no flap indercator no egt no weight and balance cracked windscreen cracked leading edge of wing neil