AVOCET Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Go for it , ive been here 10 years , and wouldnt have it any other way , As they say, when the bug bites , theres no stopping ! Mike . V 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Camel Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/download/caaps/ops/92_1.pdf There is a difference between a ALA and a just a landing strip, biggest difference could be ability to claim insurance also notice in the regulations about flight training at ALA. I think a pilot can land a plane where he thinks it is safe and has permission. Here is my landing strip ( paddock ) on google earth, the long strip is the normal operating strip, the others were cleared so in strong winds conditions I can safely land, the google photo was taken nearly 12 months ago. My aircraft is the only one that has ever used it. I do worry about liability and have marked it with a cross at each end and next to windsock post, the wind sock is removed after use and is not white or yellow but orange so it is not identified as an ALA. I will soon invite some to use but would not allow inexperienced pilots due to liability worries, would possibly write an indemnity note for a user to sign stating it is not an ALA but just a landing strip and to use at their own risk ! I personally have landed at a lot of bush strips in the past and was invited to be the first to land at a farm one way landing strip which had some interestIng features. At the moment we have had a lot of rain and the strip drains reasonable but not with the amount of rain at the moment, too wet in middle, can get out but would not be a comfortable landing for the J230, need a STOL. I make it a point to stay away from neighbours houses so not to piss them off, no one has done anything but watch and enjoy. Have offered all neighbour flights and some have taken up the offer, the council was doing work on road and dropped in to look, comment how quite it was and hardly heard it, saw the shadow first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Isaac Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 I have read the CAAP. It is very straight forward and just telling you what common sense would tell any intelligent person who was setting up a strip. This is the first sentence: IMPORTANT The information in this publication is advisory only. There is no legal requirement to observe the details set out in this publication. Perhaps bad wording on my part Happyflyer, I was NOT saying that permission was required. It never was even under the old ALA regulations. I should have said you are required to meet the regulations when using an ALA for the purposes of taking off and landing an aircraft. It is always dangerous to selectively quote from a CAAP, because the very next paragraph following the one you quoted states: "Civil Aviation Regulation 92 (1) states that: “An aircraft shall not land at, or take-off from, any place unless: ...(d) the place....is suitable for use as an aerodrome for the purposes of the landing and taking-off of aircraft; and, having regard to all the circumstances of the proposed landing or take-off (including the prevailing weather conditions), the aircraft can land at, or take-off from, the place in safety.” Regulation 92 (1) does not specify the method of determining which “circumstances”, other than the prevailing weather conditions, should be considered in any particular case. These matters are the responsibility of the pilot in command and, in some circumstances, are shared with the aircraft operator. These guidelines set out factors that may be used to determine the suitability of a place for the landing and taking-off of aeroplanes. Experience has shown that, in most cases, application of these guidelines will enable a take-off or landing to be completed safely, provided that the pilot in command: (a) has sound piloting skills; and (b) displays sound airmanship" The point I was trying to make is that if you use a paddock (and a simple paddock can be used in compliance if the dimensions and slope are correct) that meets the dimension for your aircraft as detailed in the ALA CAAP; and provided you had not breached other regulations like overloading; and you had an accident, your insurer would be bound to cover you. Good luck with a claim where the landing area did not meet the ALA recommendations. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetjr Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Your insurer might not feel the same way I was asked very clearly did I only operate from registered airports, i asked for definition and they got a bit lost. Obviously is an issue on their list of exclusions or reasons to charge more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happyflyer Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Perhaps bad wording on my part Happyflyer, I was NOT saying that permission was required. It never was even under the old ALA regulations. I should have said you are required to meet the regulations when using an ALA for the purposes of taking off and landing an aircraft.It is always dangerous to selectively quote from a CAAP, because the very next paragraph following the one you quoted states: "Civil Aviation Regulation 92 (1) states that: “An aircraft shall not land at, or take-off from, any place unless: ...(d) the place....is suitable for use as an aerodrome for the purposes of the landing and taking-off of aircraft; and, having regard to all the circumstances of the proposed landing or take-off (including the prevailing weather conditions), the aircraft can land at, or take-off from, the place in safety.” Regulation 92 (1) does not specify the method of determining which “circumstances”, other than the prevailing weather conditions, should be considered in any particular case. These matters are the responsibility of the pilot in command and, in some circumstances, are shared with the aircraft operator. These guidelines set out factors that may be used to determine the suitability of a place for the landing and taking-off of aeroplanes. Experience has shown that, in most cases, application of these guidelines will enable a take-off or landing to be completed safely, provided that the pilot in command: (a) has sound piloting skills; and (b) displays sound airmanship" The point I was trying to make is that if you use a paddock (and a simple paddock can be used in compliance if the dimensions and slope are correct) that meets the dimension for your aircraft as detailed in the ALA CAAP; and provided you had not breached other regulations like overloading; and you had an accident, your insurer would be bound to cover you. Good luck with a claim where the landing area did not meet the ALA recommendations. Yes you are right David, it is dangerous to quote selectively but after that first paragraph I stopped reading! Only joking. Perhaps surprisingly the regulations make quite good sense and are not onerous or restrictive in any way. jetjr, what did you reply when they asked about registered airports? Given that a very large number of airstrips are not registered or certified that would restrict you quite a lot. I would be changing insurers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Isaac Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Your insurer may ask if you operate your aircraft from 'Authorised' airfields and other statements such as Jetjr has stated. 'Authorised' comes from the old meaning of ALA which used to mean 'Authorised Landing Areas'. Under the old definition ALAs were not physically authorised by CASA or any authority. If the ALA met the correct dimensions for the performance of the aircraft operating from it (length, width, slope, obstructions in the approach and departure gradients, it was 'deemed' authorised. I would speculate that because of confusion around this meaning, there was a subsequent change to 'Aeroplane' Landing areas in the current definition. The answer all pilots should give to their insurer of course (as long as it is true) is that they always operate from ALAs as defined by the CASA CAAP and if something goes wrong at a non ALA, if the insurer investigates, expect your claim to be denied. If you tell your insurer truthfully that you operate from non ALAs e.g a one way strip, expect your insurer to exclude cover for operations from such places unless you are a qualified Ag operator doing approved agricultural operations. With our low powered (relativity speaking) aircraft, a special skill set is required to operate from marginal airfields. Most small Council local airfields are simply ALAs, and that is sufficient and adequate in most cases. Things start to change when RPT operations commence. Beware, NOT ALL ALAs are necessarily suitable for your aircraft, that is why you should phone an ALA owner / operator for details before you fly in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kununurra Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Communication is the key to success contact your neighbours let them know what your plans are and put to rest any fears they may have for your plans, I am sure it will save you a lot of fuss in the long run. I would also contact your local shire or council to get their take on this. Some shire/councils have all sorts of unusual bylaws and they can create them to suit themselves. The last thing you would want is huge solicitors fees to fix up something that could have been done in the early stages. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaba-who Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 I have to say (sorry guys) but the answers given on this thread regarding the legal position of councils has been a mish mash of of misinformation. I have looked at buying a property and setting up my own airfield several times in three shires and have friends who have been through the mill and can report the following: As far as the legal situation about councils (rural or otherwise) at least in Queensland goes. IF a council ALREADY has in place a By Law that restricts the setting up of a place where you land an aircraft (the name ALA, airstrip airport or whatever will not get you around the rule) then you can not set one up. This is currently the law in the Tablelands Shire in North Queensland . Other shires may or may not have similar by laws. If you think you can get around it by claiming my plane is like my car you can't, that ONLY applies where no by law ALREADY exists. If no by law already exists then you CAN claim the right to enter and leave your property by whatever means is safe. This is certain and was proved in court by Bob Norman in Cairns about 20 years ago when he installed a helipad on an acreage property on the northern beaches area of Cairns. If you are told by a council you can't have one and no by law exists they can still stop you with a court injunction and YOU have to take the council to court. Even if you do win the council may impose heavy restrictions on your usage. Pat English built a strip at Koah in North Queensland (In the Tablelands Shire prior to the no airstrips rule) and although he won, at great cost, he was left with significant restrictions such as daily weekly and monthly take offs and landings, no circuits except for returning or departing from the strip, no usage by other aircraft except in emergencies, provision of records of take offs and landings to the council at regular intervals. It was his "victory" over the council which inspired them to introduce the by law which couldn't stop him but does stop anyone else from having a private airstrip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVOCET Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 I have to say (sorry guys) but the answers given on this thread regarding the legal position of councils has been a mish mash of of misinformation.I have looked at buying a property and setting up my own airfield several times in three shires and have friends who have been through the mill and can report the following: As far as the legal situation about councils (rural or otherwise) at least in Queensland goes. IF a council ALREADY has in place a By Law that restricts the setting up of a place where you land an aircraft (the name ALA, airstrip airport or whatever will not get you around the rule) then you can not set one up. This is currently the law in the Tablelands Shire in North Queensland . Other shires may or may not have similar by laws. If you think you can get around it by claiming my plane is like my car you can't, that ONLY applies where no by law ALREADY exists. If no by law already exists then you CAN claim the right to enter and leave your property by whatever means is safe. This is certain and was proved in court by Bob Norman in Cairns about 20 years ago when he installed a helipad on an acreage property on the northern beaches area of Cairns. If you are told by a council you can't have one and no by law exists they can still stop you with a court injunction and YOU have to take the council to court. Even if you do win the council may impose heavy restrictions on your usage. Pat English built a strip at Koah in North Queensland (In the Tablelands Shire prior to the no airstrips rule) and although he won, at great cost, he was left with significant restrictions such as daily weekly and monthly take offs and landings, no circuits except for returning or departing from the strip, no usage by other aircraft except in emergencies, provision of records of take offs and landings to the council at regular intervals. It was his "victory" over the council which inspired them to introduce the by law which couldn't stop him but does stop anyone else from having a private airstrip. Thats one reason i moved from QLD to SA 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happyflyer Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 I have to say (sorry guys) but the answers given on this thread regarding the legal position of councils has been a mish mash of of misinformation.I have looked at buying a property and setting up my own airfield several times in three shires and have friends who have been through the mill and can report the following: As far as the legal situation about councils (rural or otherwise) at least in Queensland goes. IF a council ALREADY has in place a By Law that restricts the setting up of a place where you land an aircraft (the name ALA, airstrip airport or whatever will not get you around the rule) then you can not set one up. This is currently the law in the Tablelands Shire in North Queensland . Other shires may or may not have similar by laws. If you think you can get around it by claiming my plane is like my car you can't, that ONLY applies where no by law ALREADY exists. If no by law already exists then you CAN claim the right to enter and leave your property by whatever means is safe. This is certain and was proved in court by Bob Norman in Cairns about 20 years ago when he installed a helipad on an acreage property on the northern beaches area of Cairns. If you are told by a council you can't have one and no by law exists they can still stop you with a court injunction and YOU have to take the council to court. Even if you do win the council may impose heavy restrictions on your usage. Pat English built a strip at Koah in North Queensland (In the Tablelands Shire prior to the no airstrips rule) and although he won, at great cost, he was left with significant restrictions such as daily weekly and monthly take offs and landings, no circuits except for returning or departing from the strip, no usage by other aircraft except in emergencies, provision of records of take offs and landings to the council at regular intervals. It was his "victory" over the council which inspired them to introduce the by law which couldn't stop him but does stop anyone else from having a private airstrip. Wow, didn't know of that situation in your state. That is the sort of thing RAAus, AOPA and the like should be lobying against. If you have it handy are you able to post the bylaw in your council area? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnarly Gnu Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 Thats one reason i moved from QLD to SA Even better in NSW where EPA inspectors that don't respect property rights are, well dismissed. Councils have no regard for the law and will trample on citizens whenever they feel like it. Legally they don't even have the authority to charge rates but that never stopped them. Always record every conversation with these authorities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DWF Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 My neighbour and I share a couple of wide "fire breaks" through our properties which we sometimes use for the arrival and/or departure of aircraft. They were there before council became aware of their existance so they were classed as "existing use". We each have a nice "machinery shed" housing various pieces of machinery. My place is west of RW Y 18/36 which is on the western boundary of my neighbours place. RWY 10/28 is through both properties and is about 1350m long. My only problem is the neighbour to the west of me will not let me remove or coppice the trees at 10 threshold reducing the EOL by about 300m. The Tiger Moths etc were on a fly around WA from Jandakot or Serpentine. Machinery shed in background. One of my 'toys' with aircraft tug (which can also be used as a mower). To wash aircraft use French backpackers. You can have it all if you pick the right place and neighbours and have a little bit of luck! DWF 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Isaac Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 DWF, that is just fantastic. Where are you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Camel Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 DWF, that is just fantastic. Where are you. French backpackers get you interested eh ? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DWF Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 DWF, that is just fantastic. Where are you. Esperance. 120 deg 8nm from YESP 15km NE of Esperance township. 2nm N of Myrup Fly-in Estate. DWF 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVOCET Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 French backpackers get you interested eh ? Thats how i ended up with a french wife : all those years ago , still good . Mike 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 Like the Renault ad.... 50,000,000 frenchmen can't be wrong. Now don't take that the wrong way AVO. A friend of mine married a french lady, supposed to be the best looking in the small town she comes from. ( Ive met her ..She's nice) All the men in that town hate him because of the fact this foreign chap married their best sheila, but like many french she won't leave France so it's not the best situation for him. He'd be back here in a flash. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schouppy Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 I realise this is an old thread but what are traps when building a "fire break". I have one 650m long for gyro use. It's currently just a Mowed section in a grass pasture paddock. Soil in North Western nsw is soft self mulching black soil. I'm thinking of having it graded with side drains and formed centre. Then considering planting a low quick spreading grass like couch. Anyone have thoughts on this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazza 38 Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 I realise this is an old thread but what are traps when building a "fire break". I have one 650m long for gyro use. It's currently just a Mowed section in a grass pasture paddock. Soil in North Western nsw is soft self mulching black soil. I'm thinking of having it graded with side drains and formed centre. Then considering planting a low quick spreading grass like couch. Anyone have thoughts on this? Sounds good mate. You're west of the great divide, so you can basically do what you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 Couch doesn't like frost. I'd get advice on a suitable grass for the area you live in. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetjr Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 Theres a pretty good advisory for building ALA from CASA Has approach and side angles needed o be clear and widths etc If it doeant cost heaps more it would be good to follow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aldo Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 Here is ours, council and care flight have used it in emergency situations. Council have never had an issue with the airstrip or any aircraft using it. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Koreelah Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 Crickey Aldo, what do you fly? Your strip looks long enough for an F/A-18! 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aldo Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 Crickey Aldo, what do you fly? Your strip looks long enough for an F/A-18! I don't own it a very good friend of mine does, we are very fortunate that we are able to use it whenever we like. It is 960 long and we regularly fly a Navajo out of here have had a PC 12 in a couple of times long enough for a King Air. Last count we had 12 aircraft all local guys who like flying and having a good time. I fly out of here most days as I commute to Toowoomba mostly in my J230 or 182. It is the best men's shed I know of and I feel very privileged to be part of it. 6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DGL Fox Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 Certainly looks like a great set up.. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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