Student Costs for Dual Training RA-Aus

[M61A1]

When I first read the thread heading, the first thing that came to my mind was two student pilots standing back to back with a Flintlock pistol in each of their hands ready to walk off for 10 steps the turn around & try and shoot each other.

I had the image of two guys in puncy outfits with rapiers try to stab one another.

 

 

[Methusala]

I'm not such a spelling snob, it just don't look right to my eye. FT - she weren't such a catch! Don

 

 

[ayavner]

$195/hr + landing fees in a J170 from Bankstown NSW.

 

 

[Gentreau]

$195/hr + landing fees in a J170 from Bankstown NSW.

And how much are landing fees ? They could add up if you're doing circuits....

 

 

[ayavner]

hi Gentreau, the landing fees i think are $10, and that is for the day so I only pay for the final full stop landing, not for stop-n-go's or touch-n-goes. So all up it is $205/hr whether its circuits or training area.

 

 

[coljones]

The Oaks - Daves Flying School (Jabaru) or Sydney Rec Fliers (Foxbats) - $150/h - grass, landing fees included + free tea and coffee and the fish and chip shop just up the road is pretty good too!!!

 

 

[DGL Fox]

Good value there no doubt

 

David

 

 

[rdarby]

Good value but you have to wonder if they are making any money at all. Flying school's arn't rolling in cash. I would rather pay more knowing that they are making enough to be sustainable and do all the right maintenance etc. If we all just want cheap flying we will in fact end up with no flying as there will be no sustainable industry.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Yes. It makes it very hard when some will do it for nothing. Its a life saving skill your learning make no mistake. The stuff you learn can save your life just as much as any doctor can if you get sick. Do you look around for the cheapest doctor when they mention the big C?

 

Food for thought..:)

 

 

[fly_tornado]

The big issue with running a flying school is hours billed, if you live somewhere with low rainfall and moderate winds you have a decent competitive advantage.

 

Spare a thought for our European and American aviators who are grounded due to snow for up to 3 months a year.

 

 

[Gentreau]

Can one of you who knows the facts clarify how much of the cost to a flying school is down to the purchase, financing and depreciation of the aircraft ?

 

It seems to me that once a high value machine is paid for and written down, the hourly cost would probably reduce significantly.

 

If true, that would also argue in favour of using machines with lower initial cost and hence lower depreciation.

 

.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Yes depreciation comes into it. Quite significantly at first. But unlike cars, they are never truely paid off because they require periodic overhauling and replacment of major parts. When you consider the cost of a new engine for a school aeroplane can be as much as a third of the cost of the new aircraft, and the new engine is required to allow it to keep working, the costs dont reduce heaps. The fixed cost of insurance and scheduled maintenance is another factor in keeping the hire price relatively high.

 

 

[DGL Fox]

RA-AUS training we are talking about not GA, just because some flying schools can do it for $150 per hour don't just assume that you are getting below par aircraft and or training, maybe the schools that charge $200 per hour are way to expensive, like I have said before, everyone has to charge what they need to stay in business but I think some are in it to make money and others with lower overheads don't need to make that much...do your homework on the school and pick what you think fits your needs and budget and personality, maybe have a lesson or two with them and see how it goes..

 

David

 

 

[ben87r]

I flew at Daves in 2008. He charged he same then!! They have been around a fair while, think most of the guys just enjoyed hanging out at the strip!!

 

 

[Methusala]

There have always been organisations who's aims are other than commercial. When you THINK about it society has diverse streams. Charity and cooperation are deeply part of human existence It has been propagandised for so long that the MARKET is the only way to measure progress, happiness or reward. Flying is an activity that inspires our nature and so clubs of enthusiastic people form to share the experience. When I learnt to fly, I did it through gliding clubs where there were no paid instructors. I gained my certificate through Holbrook ultralight Club. No commercial interest but a great experience. So don't crap on about "cheaper" clubs such as the Oaks being inferior. Put up your evidence or keep a respectful silence before empty criticism. Don

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Who Said anything about them being inferior? Charity is great no body's knocking the charitable clubs mate. My point was that cheap shouldn't be the primary concern. Also ot makes ot difficult to be conpetative when people will do it for free. But thank you for your Input :)

 

 

[motzartmerv]

RA-AUS training we are talking about not GA, just because some flying schools can do it for $150 per hour don't just assume that you are getting below par aircraft and or training, maybe the schools that charge $200 per hour are way to expensive,David

Maybe so, but what does that make the schools that charge $250 an hour or more? Again, no body made any correlation between cost and standards. I have personally seen some aircraft from some schools that you wouldn't send your worst enemy flying in, but thats generally not related to cost either. Maybe some correlation could be made but it would be a case by case basis and not something you could throw a blanket over.:) The thread was started to discus the costing of dual (duel) training, I dont think its unreasonable to include the fact that some instructors do do it for free, but the cheapest price shouldn't be the prime directive. There has been plenty of discussion on how much it cost old mate back in the day..Or how much it cost's to train in the good old USA, but most of that isnt relevant to the 'student' who posed the question in the first place. I have included the cost breakdown of an actual school aeroplane, operated over some years with several different schools to hopefully inform some as to the workings of online acft. And its 'current' information. No where did I say anything about cheap schools being below standard. BUT I do think its a fair assumption to make that a good aircraft is going to cost you more. Its simple economics and i find it quite cute that some seem to think it doesn't apply to aviation. Sometimes you DO get what you pay for.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

The school charging $250 an hour is probably working on the principle that is the maximum the market will bear, so charge it and hope you get enough students to keep you viable. Customers that decide to do a lot of hours will probably move on to another school.

 

 

[Methusala]

"Do you look around for the cheapest doctor when they mention the big C?"

 

I think that these words carry some imputation. I am merely asking that care is exercised when reputations are on the line. Some doctors bulk bill.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Look mate I've explained what I meant, stop looking for something that isnt there.I make my living from instructing so I know about reputations . :)

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Most students don't have access to background information.

 

 

[Mick]

This is an interesting thread. The average of numbers given works out at $188.00 per hour.

 

Training has just commenced at Gladstone Qld using a J230 at $280.00 per hour.

 

 

[DGL Fox]

Training has just commenced at Gladstone Qld using a J230 at $280.00 per hour.

Based on other prices in this thread that is high that's for sure, do you have any other schools in Gladstone to compare it with?

 

It could also be that you are in the middle of the mining boom area and the owners of the school know there is lots of money in the area, good place to make a money for all businesses I would say, so why not a flying school. I would think if you are flying in and out of Gladstone airport there would be some fairly high landing fee's etc being a fly in fly out airport for the mining companies.

 

I would be looking around and comparing prices and what you are getting for your money..

 

David

 

 

[dodo]

I think a J230 is going to cost more in fuel and depreciation than an LSA 55. The difference would have to be at least $15/hour in fuel, and I would guess $5-10,000/year in depreciation.

 

Dave's flying school at the Oaks is very good value. Standards of instruction and maintenance are as good, or better, than I have seen elsewhere. I don't think the low cost does Dave's finances a favour, but my belief is that he likes what he does, so he is only partly commercial (there's a fair bit of lifestyle thrown in!). His flying school has been there a decade or more, so it is clearly sustainable.

 

dodo

 

PS I commented earlier that an instructor was more interested in the standard of my flying than in getting the certificate. That was Dave Rolfe.

 

 

[mAgNeToDrOp]

~$260 per hour dual at my club/school, for a tecnam p92. seems pretty steep looking at this thread.... It's primarily a ga school and apparently not for profit (?) the instructors probably get the same rate wether they are trAining someone for raaus or ppl/cpl.

 

I am however impressed with the professionalism, training and maintenance standards at the club.